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    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2018 edited
     
    Hello!

    About a year ago I started a map of Sanctuary in this thread here.

    Unfortunately I wasn't able to take the project very far, but I've decided to try again.

    The new city map will be based on a large walled city plan that is automatically generated with a ready made citadel and temple by the Medieval Fantasy City Generator created by watabou (which, by the way doesn't work at all in Edge, but works fine in Firefox)

    I generated the new city layout without the river because in my mind the generator produces rather strange rivers that are too wide and curiously angular, so I will need to chisel a path through the plan for the river to take before I get too far, which in turn means I need to think about the exact geography of the area before I even begin with the city.

    Also this time I am trying my best not to add about a hundred new sheets, like I did with Merelan City. This is to try and keep the map as 'lite' as can be, considering that it will have to be fairly large. The map size is 5000 x 5000 map units right now, but if that's too big to be manageable as an Atlas map I might halve the scale at some point down the line.

    I will initially be using the House button to add most of the buildings. If it turns out that this also causes too much of a drain on the memory I might have to adjust my approach, but we shall see :)

    Here is the generated city...

    Sanctuary 7 for PF forum.jpg

    There will be a whole lot more space around it than that in the actual map ;)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2018 edited
     
    Here is the location map

    Location map.JPG

    The reference map

    Ref Map.png

    And a map that Lorelei rather likes. (I do to, but we shall have to see if I can come close to it with a few HSL sheet effects)

    sample city.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2018 edited
     
    I've downloaded the FT world to get the coast right and discovered that at city map scale the coast is a little bit too simplified. This works to my advantage in that as long as nobody minds I can create the inlet leading off from the bay to match the randomly generated city plan - like an estuary of the river Sanctuary.

    Here is a screen shot of the coastline with the approximate location of the city marked very crudely in red, and a slight diversion of the end of the river to take it through the city instead of to one side of it.

    Rough city plan.JPG

    I'm having an issue with scale.

    The city is approximately 3 miles wide, but at the standard city map scale of 1 map unit to 1 foot that means a map that is about 20000 units wide (1 mile is 5280 feet).

    Alternatively I can change the number of feet per map unit to something like 5 ft per map unit. This I have tried, but using the distance measuring tool still gives measurements in the old scale. Maybe I'm not changing the scale the right way? I've altered the number of feet per unit in the drawing presets dialog, but I must be missing something here.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2018 edited
     
    Posted By: LoopysueAlternatively I can change the number of feet per map unit to something like 5 ft per map unit.
    Don't. This is just begging for problems.
    And it doesn't make any difference for CC3+ if your map is 10000 map units wide or if it is 10 map units wide. This isn't like a drawing program where more pixels makes the drawing larger. Map units are just a measurement unit, there are no performance gains of reducing the number of map units if you plan to include the same content anyway. So keep the map at the correct scale.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2018
     
    Thanks Remy :)

    So to get the distance measuring tool to show the right distances between things I would really need to make the map 20,000 map units wide and a bit less tall?
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2018 edited
     
    Yes. (Well, there are other ways, but you don't get any advantages at all by reducing the number of map units in the map. It is the level of detail that causes issues, not the size of these details in map units)

    You'll need to watch your detail level though, because mapping a 3 mile wide city at street level detail will be a burden on your system because of the sheer number of entities, but fiddling with the map size in map units won't help anything with that.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2018
     
    Thanks again :)

    I may have issues with the detail level, but I'm hoping it won't be too bad since I'm not planning on adding every chimney stack. Just the buildings. This isn't going to have 150 sheets like MC had.

    If I still can't afford a new PC in the next month, I will probably be able to double my RAM - if that helps. I only have 4 GB at the moment, and thanks to Win 10 and processor security updates messing everything up I have only 1.5 GB usable RAM. It will be really nice to have another 4.
    • CommentAuthorScottA
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2018
     
    Scale is always an issue I've had with city mapping (my own comprehension, not the program itself). To make something even as small as 1 square mile requires a seemingly enormous map.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 22nd 2018
     
    It feels scary, but I've re-created the base map. Its now 18,000 x 15,000.

    We'll see how far I get before I get stuck for memory :P
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 22nd 2018 edited
     
    Here is the first WIP.

    I've done the city walls and put in most of the roads - including all the tiny threads that run through the poor sectors.

    This is not the true colour of the map. I've had to increase the contrast so that the finer roads are visible.

    To give an idea of scale the finest roads (paths) are 5' wide.

    City of Sanctuary Version 2 - 01.JPG

    Here is a close up of a section of the wall.

    City of Sanctuary Version 2 - 01 extract.JPG

    Closer still

    City of Sanctuary Version 2 - 01 extract 2.JPG

    The roads need some work on them to make them look natural - a bit of corner cutting and uneavenness in width, but I will do that another day. For now I am resting after completing the first major job in a single day.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 24th 2018
     
    Just a quick general shot of the city centre :)
      City Centre 01.JPG
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeApr 24th 2018
     
    oooooohhhhh! I like where you are going with this
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 24th 2018 edited
     
    Thanks Lorelei :)

    The basic concept of a tiered harbour area is a shameless rip off from that map you gave me as an example. I just thought it could do with one of those garden water features that seem to be so popular these days.

    I discovered a new use for the HW snow fill. If you stretch it by setting the width to 100 and the height to 1000, wack the brightness and saturation right up the scale with an HSL sheet effect, and if you then align the fill in the direction in which the waterfall is facing, it actually makes a half reasonable waterfall. I haven't got it quite perfect just yet, but using a fill instead of drawing all that detail with hundreds of little blurred lines helps to cut down on the node count ;) If they were really so inclined a person could redo the falls as a smaller map - when I've finished this one :)
      Waterfalls 01.JPG
    • CommentAuthorScottA
    • CommentTimeApr 24th 2018
     
    Very clever! Love it.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 24th 2018
     
    Thanks Scott :)

    it took me AGES to work that one out.

    I'm looking to keep this as low poly as is humanly possible, so a lot of the effects I used in Merelan City will have to be adapted to suit that ideal. I'm thinking of using as many standard building symbols as I can, because the buildings generated by the House command contain a lot of nodes and shaded polys which seem to eat memory a lot faster than the ready made symbols. Once I get outside the city wall I might even resort to Hadrian's method, and create the impression of buildings by using a bevel effect.

    I'm going to set up the background with all the fields and forests and stuff, and then I'm starting with the buildings inside the wall, so we'll see how its going by the time I get to so outside the wall. Although its not on the scale of Hadrian's cities, Sanctuary is approximately 3 times larger than Merelan City.
    • CommentAuthorLadieStorm
    • CommentTimeApr 25th 2018
     
    Hey Sue, this is looking great so far! And since I'm going to be doing a city map very soon, this may be good inspiration!

    I do have a suggestion in regards to your water fall, if you're interested. I noticed that there is a slight gap at the middle waterfall. The pool of water doesn't go all the way to the edge. The suggestion I have, is to draw the pool, so that it actually connects with the water down below, just over the edge, then place the glacier fill on top of that. That way, it looks like the water is tumbling over. In that middle pool, the water doesn't connect to the glacier, and it sort of breaks the illusion of the water going over the cliff (that is a cliff, right?).

    I look forward to seeing how this one turns out! Your Merelan City was awesome! I know you will bring the same beauty to this one.

    Oh, and Congrats on your Atlas Award!!!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 25th 2018
     
    Hey Storm :)

    Thank you :D

    I know there's a gap. I just haven't got around to doing anything about it right now. That's because I keep darting around doing other stuff. The monologue in my head goes a bit like this:

    Let's experiment with that idea you had about the grass last night... oh look, there's a gap between the water and the fall... yes, but I have a bit of grass on my cursor right now, I'll look at it later... ok, but while we're on grass don't you think we need to add a few trees so that we can do a quick colour check... ok - now where did I put that tree catalogue... there's a gap in that waterfall... stoppit! I'm trying to find the trees... why the heck do we want the trees.... to check with the grass... ok, but there's still a gap in that water fall...

    And so on :P

    Now that I've started this, and if you're looking for any helpful advice, I'd say its really important to have something to start with - like either a PF random city, or one from watabou (link above). City building is about a million times easier if you have a nice attractive road system to get you going.

    But you don't need to stick to the initial plan. I've already ripped the heart out of the watabou road system I started with to make way for the tiered harbour area. The initial plan is only there to focus your efforts. In no way should it limit your creative instinct ;)
    • CommentAuthorLadieStorm
    • CommentTimeApr 25th 2018
     
    I might try it the next time I'm making a city for myself, or something... but this commission comes with a general outline already... so I sort of need to go with what the client wants :). But I do appreciate the advice! :)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 25th 2018
     
    I hope he/she has given you a good one, then ;)

    Will you be showing a WIP thread here, or is it one of those hush-hush no display arrangements?
    • CommentAuthorLadieStorm
    • CommentTimeApr 25th 2018
     
    WIP will probably be on the guild thread because he's a member there, but I will be able to post finished product both places.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 25th 2018 edited
     
    I'll look out for it then - when I can log back on :) I'm having BB issues right now.

    Here's a small update of the harbour area. These are supposed to be ramps, and yes - I know the falls still aren't right ;)

    Harbour 01.JPG

    I'm starting to have problems with CC3 slowing down, but this was only to be expected with such a large map. I may have to cut this one into quarter mile squares, and do a separate more basic map of the entire city. I which case I need to create the grid and concentrate on finishing the border areas so that its ready to cut up without any discontinuity problems.

    Then, when all the quarter miles are finished, I'll combine all the rendered images into one map, reduce it, and draw the basic city map a lot smaller.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2018 edited
     
    Steps forward and backward all over the place - adjustments to the cliff lines, a cluster of buildings discarded, another added and a bit more work on the waterfalls (I gave up trying to make the snow fill really work, and drew a new symbol - just the one). There's now a boatyard - the beginnings of one anyway. I've improved on the ramps - getting rid of the hard glow line at each end. These are huge constructions by the way (this is 1/4 mile square section of the map), intended to withstand the storms and be broad enough for heavy loads to be transported up and down the city to and from the docks.

    The falls are named after three very famous sisters, in who's memory the merfolk (as I understand there are a lot of merfolk in the oceans of Nibirum) sent a great storm to carve the narrow gorge of the mouth of the river Sanctuary into the three tiers on which the city is now built, so that the peaceful people of Sanctuary might have their precious gateway to the sea despite the cliffs that extend for many miles east and west.


    BB problems! I will upload the image as soon as I can...
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2018 edited
     
    I can't edit the previous comment without crashing most of the apps I'm running (I think its my machine), so here is the 1/4 mile map.

    Harbour 02.jpg

    Well that worked! :)

    And here are the new waterfalls:

    Waterfalls 02.jpg

    The new fall symbol isn't quite right, but I need to talk to Remy about whether it can be included in the tree symbols and fills I already have stored in the Atlas once its finished.
    • CommentAuthorScottA
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2018
     
    You changed the waterfall symbol from the HW snow fill or done something more to it. I really love it! With some tinkering, it would also make a great avalanche!
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2018
     
    Another Fantastic Map !
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2018
     
    Thanks, both of you :)

    Scott - I drew the waterfall in GIMP, because I just couldn't get the effects to do what I wanted them to do in less than 5 sheets. This way, I get to delete those 5 sheets, which saves precious memory and keeps the map nice and undemanding. The only problem is if that waterfall symbol can't be included in the Atlas for some reason. Then I will have to go back to the snow filled falls.

    Its not perfect yet - it feels kind of truncated - too short somehow. I'm sure the water should fly out further from the lip of the cliff...
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2018
     
    oooooh those falls are lovely!!!!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2018
     
    Thank you, Lorelei :)

    If Remy agrees I'd like to add it (there's only one symbol) to the set of trees that already exists in the Atlas. It might be a bit of an odd thing to do - to include a solitary waterfall to a set of trees, I mean, but there is only that one. I might do more when I've got time - maybe make a set for the community art collection eventually ;)

    I will ask him if it can be done.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2018 edited
     
    As long as it is something you have made yourself, it can be distributed with the atlas, as long as the total size of such added resources is kept low (I've set the limit at 10MB per map, otherwise it is too easy for a single map to multiply the download size of the atlas, which I do want to keep relatively small.
    Make sure to use the map relative path of $..\Resources\Sue\Symbols\.... for all such resources though, so I can include it in the atlas properly.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2018
     
    Thanks Remy :)

    I drew it from scratch myself today.

    I will email it (and the catalogue I created for it) to you, since its a bit too big to upload right here. I'll also send you a screen shot of where the folder is and what its called.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2018
     
    I don't need it until you are done with the map.

    But do note what I wrote about the path you need to use above, it can sometimes be difficult to fix later, depending on the path used. Custom artwork is always a bit more tricky when making maps for the atlas, in interest of making it easier to use for those that download it.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 27th 2018 edited
     
    Oops! I did it wrong :(

    I also already sent it to you before I saw that. Sorry!

    EDIT: I remember trying to use relative, and getting an error message. That's why I did it absolute.

    Please can you help me sort it out when you are not so busy?
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2018 edited
     
    It is slightly tricky, but here is the exact procedure to follow

    1. ALWAYS use the atlas directory structure throughout your work with the map. Basically, this means having a continent folder where you keep your map in, and side by side with that continent folder should be the resource folder where you put the resources to be used for the atlas. Where you put these two directories (the continent and resource ones) doesn't matter, just that they have to be side by side (residing in the same parent folder). The continent folder doesn't even have to be for the correct continent, that doesn't matter, but the Resource folder must be named correctly.
      If you want to put the symbol in a symbol catalog instead of just directly in the map, also keep the symbol catalog in the same folder as the map (the continent folder).
    2. Import the symbol as normal, including creating other resolutions. The import symbol dialog will complain about the relative path, and basically force you to use the absolute path instead, do this (don't make the path relative to the CC3+ data folder)
    3. Open the symbol manager, select your new symbol, and hit edit. Define the edit window.
    4. Use Numeric edit on the image (Some images with partially transparent edges can be difficult to select the edge of, such as your waterfall, you may need to resort to a bit of spam-clicking to find a good point to select it on). This will bring up the Edit Picture dialog, and you can fix the path by replacing everything up to Resources with $..\
      For example, this was my original path: C:\Users\monsen\Desktop\Resources\Sue\Symbols\Waterfall 01_VH.PNG
      Which I replaced with: $..\Resources\Sue\Symbols\Waterfall 01_VH.PNG
      Make sure that the radio buttons is set to a path relative to the drawing.
    5. Hit ok in the dialog. If you did this correctly, the image should still show (i.e. not turn into a red X). [Note that if you didn't use the correct folder setup from above, then it WILL turn into a red X]
    6. Close the edit window, accept saving the symbol.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2018
     
    Oooh, Thank you Remy :)

    I really appreciate that you took the time to write it all down in a neat instruction set like that, since I know how busy you are right now ;)

    Thank you very much :)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2018
     
    It worked.... kind of.

    I do have this really pretty pink line around them, but I can still see the symbols.
      Pink.jpg
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2018
     
    Not to worry! I've just closed and re-opened the file and its all perfectly fine now - no more pink line :)

    Thanks again Remy. I'm hoping all you will have to do is just drop the catalogue and png folder in place and all will be well.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2018 edited
     
    Not sure why the image outline shows (You may remember that in the dialog in step 4, there was a 'hide outline' checkbox, and it should be checked by default.
    Anyway, closing and re-opening the map should fix it, and if not, it seems like the easiest fix is simply just place one more copy of the symbol in the map (from the symbol catalog window, not by doing in-map copying), and then hit 'Redraw', this will cause the outlines of all the rest of the symbols to disappear (and you can then delete the last symbol you placed)


    If your folder structure is correct, then yes, all I need to do is to drop things into the appropriate folders.

    Just note that if you are making a symbol catalog, remember that definitions are copied to the map on the first use, so you may need to fix paths in both the symbol catalog and existing symbols in the map.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2018
     
    I think with all my random clicking to find the edge of the waterfall at step 4 above (and I' seem to have drawn a particularly difficult symbol to select!)I might have carried on clicking a bit too long, as the window appeared flashing, so I might inadvertently have unticked that box the first time without realising it.

    After I closed the file and re-opened it the first time it was still there, so I sort of guessed I'd done it wrong and went through the whole process again - this time making sure that little box was ticked the second time.

    When I closed and reopened the file the second time the pink lines vanished, so I opened the symbol manager, selected the symbol, and overwrote the original catalogue file.

    I'm a bit hazy about whether that will have made everything right, but I'm really hoping so.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2018 edited
     
    Probably.

    You can also check that your edit of the symbol is successful by bringing up the symbol manager, selecting the symbol, and hitting the List button. That shows the output of list on the symbol definition, and you should see the image path (which should read $..\Resources\Symbols\Sue\Waterfall.png (or something similar)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2018
     
    I know this will make someone of your calibre smile and chuckle, but I feel really proud of myself for having sorted it out :)

    Couldn't have done it without your help, though ;)
      Success.jpg
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2018
     
    No reason not to feel proud, this stuff is a bit tricky. I know of plenty of people who wouldn't have gotten this right, even with the instructions.
    But this is really the wast way when we include resources in a download such as the atlas, because it allows us to use the "just unzip anywhere and use" instruction, instead of having to tell people what to copy where (And you just know that a lot of people will get that wrong). Doing it thhis way makes the atlas completely self-contained (except for the add-ons/symbol sets from the "allowed" list though, even if we had the permission, we couldn't distribute all that with every atlas download)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2018
     
    Thanks for reminding me of another question I wanted to ask but keep forgetting.

    I realise its not going to happen for a while, yet, because of all the work going on backstage on Dioramas 3 and the Source Maps, but when we do start making a community art collection of some kind, do you think it will be possible to use that in the Atlas maps in the same way that we would use the third party add ons?

    It might be waaaay too much work. I was just curious to know ;)
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2018
     
    The plan is to allow people to use that in atlas maps, yes. But because we don't want people to have to update their art collection once a week to stay up to date, the collection itself will probably be compiled and released about once every quarter, and of course, only the art included in that release can used in the atlas, artwork scheduled for the next release may be available for individual download if people really want it, but it won't be properly prepared, and the use is discouraged for anything but personal maps.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2018
     
    Excellent :)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2018
     
    I'm having serious problems.

    For some reason the file crashes as soon as I decide to get a clear view of something by using fixed bitmap quality set to Very high.

    I've tried stripping all the non-critical symbols and fills out of it to lighten the load, but its still crashing.

    I notice that whenever I open the file the command line is set to "STREETLOAD", which I never initiated.

    I'm just hoping that I haven't corrupted the file and need to start all over again.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2018 edited
     
    STREETLOAD is run from the OnOpenMacro map note, completely normal.

    Do you have enough memory to force all the textures to very high? Try running the LISTIMAGENAMESDWG command (takes a little while) and then scroll down to the bottom of the report window and check the very last line to see how much memory is needed for having everything in memory. Also note that CC3+ need contiguous memory, so if it has been a while since the last reboot, memory may be fragmented, so a reboot may help.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2018
     
    It doesn't recognise the command.

    I think I've reached the limit already, and I've only done the bottom two harbour levels. I might have to do it all Hadrian style - simple one-colour polygons with a bevel to make the rooftops. Its not what I wanted to do, but I don't really have a lot of choice.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2018
     
    Thank you for trying to help, but please don't worry about trying to find a solution tonight. I'm not actually very well right now, and I have to go to bed.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2018
     
    Sorry, small spelling error in the command, missing an A.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2018
     
    Wow.