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    • CommentAuthorJosh.P.
    • CommentTimeApr 13th 2018
     
    Hi All,

    Most of you will be aware of the amazing Community Atlas Project that has been running through these forums for over a year now. It has produced some superb results and amazing maps for people to admire, learn from and use.

    A few months ago a couple of us got talking about another piece of software that we use. That software is Realm Works. Realm Works is basically like a digital GM binder that allows people to bring the benefit of a fully linked and interactive database to their tables. It's designed specifically for creating worlds and campaign content. Naturally the conversation flowed onto how cool it would be to put the Community Atlas Project into Realm Works. We wanted to continue in the spirit of the Community Atlas Project though and allow the community of Realm Works GMs (many of whom also use CC3+) to contribute their own ideas to the project.

    Now obviously we could not distribute the Community Atlas Project maps without permission. Because of that we decided to setup home in Artemisia as the majority of the maps there were created by Quenten who was keen to allow his maps to be used and to contribute himself to the project. We are not using any maps without permission from the cartographer who made it.

    If you have made maps for Artemisia or want to make maps for Artemisia then we would love your permission to use your maps in the this project. If you don't want us to use it that's also completely fine. We will just re-create the map ourselves at some point in order to fill what ever gap that creates. If you would like to give us permission please reach out to myself, Quenten or GThiel. We can be contacted here, Facebook or on the forums linked below.

    Thus the Realm Works Community Campaign World Project was born. We have setup forums at the link below where we coordinate and communicate all of the moving parts.

    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/realmworkscommunitycampaignworld/index.php

    So why Realm Works?
    Quite simply it's an amazing tool that is perfect for what we wanted to do. Realm Works is a topic based database program with a focus on making it easy to manage large amounts of information. It has an active community of people using the tool and it makes it possible for us to import contributions from multiple people and then distribute that in a single easy to use package that can be combined with other content people have put into Realm Works.
    A Map

    Realm Works lets us document the setting to a much higher level of detail and comes built in with a heap of templates designed to help facilitate the process.
    A Map

    We are keeping track of the history allowing everyone to keep up and make additions to the events that have shaped the world.
    A Map

    Most importantly though it lets us manage all of the locations that are being mapped in a well laid out and easy to use manner in the process allowing us to link it all together into one big interactive world.
    A Map

    It's already a great functional tool for GMs who may want to run their games in this world we are mapping.
    A Map

    We can really bring the maps to life allowing people to actually explore these in their games.
    A Map

    It's encouraging more community interaction as the cartographers and GMs work together to refine what is being built.
    A Map

    It's encouraging people to contribute more maps to the Community Atlas Project as more maps are being created for the detailed locations that the GMs are documenting.
    A Map

    If you would like to get involved then feel free to join us. The more maps, the more content, the better this resource becomes and the closer it brings our community together. :)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 13th 2018
     
    Oh I seeeeeeee :)

    Thanks for the explanation, Josh.

    It works a lot like the writer's software I use to gather the information for a novel - to plan and gather all the research together, then do the writing in the same app.
    • CommentAuthorJosh.P.
    • CommentTimeApr 13th 2018 edited
     
    Yeah I've heard people have used it for books. Similar to Scrivener I've heard but with much more focus on table-top RPG's obviously. Probably not great for creating a book though as it doesn't export to a useful format for publishing print content.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 13th 2018 edited
     
    It was Scrivener I was thinking about - that being the software I am currently using. (I've used all kinds of things over the years, but Scrivener seems about the best)

    By mentioning it I was trying to draw a comparison that would help any other writers who don't happen to be DMs to understand what Realm Works is, and what its used for.

    Come to think of it... I think that's why I in particular had such a hard time trying to work out what was happening with Artemisia before Remy and you so kindly explained it for us. Its because I've never been a DM. I've never even played RPG, so I'd never even heard of Realm Works at all.

    I have to admit that when I saw the name in other comments my immediate thoughts were that some gaming company called 'Realm Works' was mining our Atlas for ideas, but now that you've explained it properly we can all rest assured that this is *not* what is happening. Thank you :)
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeApr 14th 2018
     
    I think this is a great project. It supplements the atlas in a nice way. Where the atlas sets out to map a world, this turns it into a role-play setting.
    It allows for a completely different way of collaborating on the information than the atlas does.

    I also thinks the current model with running this as two separate projects works best, since not everyone who want to contribute maps wants to be a a part of a worldbuilding project, and not everyone who wants to write descriptions wants to map. In fact, int he beginning of the atlas project, I actually had people worried about the workload if they were required to write long descriptions for their maps, they really just wanted to make maps. (Which is the main focus of this particular community anyway. The people here have very different reasons for mapping and uses for their maps, but the common factor is making maps)
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeApr 14th 2018 edited
     
    Four new maps for Artemisa from Jerry Thiel, one of the contributors to both projects:

    Slave Market
    Auction Hall
    Village of Kuara
    Majerna of the Gods

    Thanks for the contribution.
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeApr 14th 2018
     
    Awesome! Thanks, Jerry....I think i am going to use that castle. It's perfect for a castle of an NPC that MIGHT end up more important in my campaign than i had planned. Excellent contributions!
    • CommentAuthorGThiel
    • CommentTimeApr 14th 2018
     
    Glad you like it!! There are four more above ground levels planned and one underground level also. Just have to get busy and finish them. They have the walls set, but not the interiors. Here's a pic of the uppermost roof level.
      mtn of the Gods 4.JPG
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 14th 2018
     
    Oh that looks really cool. Love the crenulations, Jerry - they were well worth the trouble :)
    • CommentAuthorWyvern
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2018
     
    Josh.P.: Thanks very much for the information regarding the whole Realm Works concept, and the relationship between the Realm Works Artemisia Project to the Community Atlas world. This would certainly have helped clarify and better inform the discussion that took place on ScottA's "Darklands" query topic elsewhere on the PF Forum lately (I wasn't online yesterday, or I'd have commented as well to your helpful remarks made there, but I see that topic has now been closed).

    Loopysue: I've been a GM since 1976, and I'd never even heard of Realm Works till it started to be mentioned on this Forum either! Plus having spent the intervening years devising numerous RPG scenarios and storylines in my own way, I doubt it's something I'd have been looking for it, given I've essentially created my own version - of sorts - over that time. As Realm Works is a professional paid-for product quite separate from ProFantasy, I also shared some of your confusion over what was happening as regards the re-use of Community Atlas materials with it, so it's good to have that resolved.

    While I agree with Monsen that the RW Artemisia Project is an interesting RPG development from the Atlas, I could wish it had been presented differently here, since, and most disappointingly, it seems it's primary accomplishment so far has been to deter Quenten and ScottA from further Atlas mapping.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2018
     
    Wyvern - I think its a really interesting project - now that I know what it is! :P

    And hopefully now that its all been explained to us (and all the confusion straightened out), we might all be able to settle down again and just enjoy the mapping. Those who have walked away might come back in time... or they might not. We'll just have to wait and see what happens. In the meantime it looks like we get to enjoy the fruits of Josh and Jerry's work at least. Thank you guys! :)
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2018
     
    Posted By: MonsenI think this is a great project. It supplements the atlas in a nice way. Where the atlas sets out to map a world, this turns it into a role-play setting.
    It allows for a completely different way of collaborating on the information than the atlas does.


    I have no objection to the Realms Works project since I openly support a copyleft /free to use art license and have given permission to use the world map so that they could publish the Artemisia continent without violating the Atlas' EULA.

    However, I do feel strongly that some mention of this in relation to the Artemesia continent should be added to the Atlas License. Mappers should be well informed that the maps they create for that continent could become part of other paid to use software which they may or may not have access to.
    • CommentAuthorGThiel
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2018
     
    Thank you for your kind words Sue!! As a relatively new user of CC3+ and feeling rather insecure when I see the great work others are producing, I'll take any Ego Boosts I can get!! :-)

    I will be sending in a series of maps to add to the Magumul Empire within the next couple days that depict one of a series of guard towers that have been put down to protect areas. If you look at the Magumul Map you will see a series of small case letters from a to r. Here is a pic displaying a couple of levels of the tower and the original inspiration photo.
      Capture2.JPG
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2018
     
    Posted By: ShessarMappers should be well informed that the maps they create for that continent could become part of other paid to use software which they may or may not have access to.
    Only with their (the mappers) express permission. The RW project don't have the right to grab any map just because it is made for Artemisia, so no map anyone submit for the atlas will end up in the RW project unless the RW representatives have requested (and gotten) their permission first, which they are free to grant or deny as they see fit, just as with any other request.
    No map will just "end up" in the RW project unless the mapper itself allows it. (I am of course assuming that the RW project obeys the license, but that really applies to everyone who downloads the atlas. The RW admins are well aware of this license restriction.)
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2018
     
    *Glances at the closed thread*

    Well, the RW people need a better explanation when they approach an unknowing mapper then. I almost said no to them because I had never heard of Realm Works and thought they wanted to use the maps in competing software. I did my due diligence and researched it before responding....others may not. *Looks back at the closed thread*

    Just my usual opinionated opinion, so ignore me if you wish. ;)
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2018
     
    I agree that information is important. I don't think updating the license agreement for the atlas is the way to go though, because the license hasn't really changed, the RW project doesn't have any extended rights, and there may be similar projects in the future.

    I was very clear with the RW project when they first approached me about this, precisely because I didn't want to close down Artemisia for anyone wanting to map there, because the atlas was a community project belonging to this forum, they would have to abide by our rules if they wanted to use the maps (Which again, they were completely on board with)

    Seeing yesterday's confusion, it is clear that there wasn't enough information out there. I think the project has been mentioned a few times, but honestly, most people don't read (or remember) every post in this forum. I'll think about what can be done from the atlas's side here, but I don't think updating the license agreement is the way to go.
    • CommentAuthorWyvern
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2018
     
    Monsen commented:Seeing yesterday's confusion, it is clear that there wasn't enough information out there. I think the project has been mentioned a few times, but honestly, most people don't read (or remember) every post in this forum. I'll think about what can be done from the atlas's side here, but I don't think updating the license agreement is the way to go.


    Maybe stipulating that each such future project has to start a topic like this one on THIS Forum, which could be mentioned in and linked-to from the Community Atlas sticky topic (maybe even from the Atlas itself), and in which all the explanations and discussions could be stored, might help? That would allow easy access to anyone contributing to the Atlas and the project to find such key information easily.

    Prior to the past few days, I had only the vague impression that Realm Works was some kind of forum a bit like Cartographer's Guild, based on what little I'd taken-in about it from previous topics here.

    And I'm relieved to discover I'm not quite the RPG hermit I thought I was in not knowing what the Realm Works program was about - thanks Shessar!
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2018
     
    @Monsen
    OK, so the EULA for the Atlas hasn't changed overall, just for those maps that the mapper has given permission for publishing elsewhere. Makes perfect sense. I was just trying to think of a means for alerting the mappers that there was a sister project and to avoid confusion in the future. Wyvern's idea of a required post linking from the atlas sticky is a good one.

    @ Josh.P.
    I was hoping to see what the EULA was for your RW project but it looks like I would have to buy the software to see it.? I think at the very least, making your EULA available for the mappers to see, might be a good idea. I know that if my maps are going to be released under two different licenses, I would at least like to know what they both are.

    @Wyvern
    Ha! Yeah, I'm most certainly an RPG hermit too, but if someone mentions something I don't know about I tend to dig into it to see if it would be useful to me.

    In this case, Realm Works is not for me. It is meant to develop and track one campaign world. More than one requires that each uses it's own windows user login. Um, I run four different campaigns depending on who is around to game. Yuk! I don't want four different logins on my own computer. LOL

    Still, it looks like really nice software. Maybe it will change in the future. :)
    • CommentAuthorJosh.P.
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2018
     
    We did have full intentions on creating a big 'introduction' thread but felt it would not be understood unless we could show some working examples of what we were talking about. It's a very powerful tool and few people understand the true potential of what it offers. I find screenshots help to better show its potential. We just forgot to follow that action up and sadly it resulted in all this confusion.

    And as Monsen has stated above we are not and will not be included maps where we do not have permission to do so. There are Artemisia maps we have not used because we do not have permission to do so. Although we are trying to obtain that permission. Ultimately we would prefer to keep our project as similar to this project where possible. We really want this to be an extension of the community project and I feel that it is succeeding. We had a new member join yesterday who heard about the project and has picked up Realm Works and CC3+ so he can contribute. I think that's brilliant.

    Where we don't obtain permission we will recreate maps where we have to though simply out of necessity.

    The legal requirements of this project go a lot further sadly. Because we are bringing in descriptive pictures of things like locations, monsters, items, etc we need to be super careful about licensing agreements. Even the names of some monsters from popular systems cannot be used. We have some topics dedicated to these concerns though with copies of the entire Creative Commons license being referenced in a few places. Actually if you check the picture above with the Owl Bear in it I'm pretty sure you can see it linked.

    End of the day all we are doing is using the maps in a way that brings the community together and expands that community, well that's what we are supposed to be doing ;)
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2018 edited
     
    I'm slightly confused about RW software... I read their features page.

    1) its all online once the maps are made ?

    2) Someone who just wanted to see the maps would need what ?

    3) is this sort of like a VTT ?

    edit: At $50, its too much for me on my limited income.
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2018
     
    @JimP
    I haven't used it, so don't take my word as gospel. It looks like it is organizational software for DMs. A place to store and link maps, images, text, NPCs, creatures, etc. It is stored on your system but also stored on a cloud server (for an additional price). With the cloud storage your players can access a player portions of the database if they have a player version of the software. Not sure if it can be accessed via LAN or exported to a web version. I stopped looking at it once I realized it could only handle one campaign easily.

    @Josh
    I finally found a license in your forums and it looks like you are using the one from the Atlas. There are no conflicts between them then. That is perfect! Thanks for patiently explaining what you are doing. It looks like a great project for the realm works users!
    • CommentAuthorJosh.P.
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2018
     
    1) its all online once the maps are made ?

    No - the data is stored locally on your pc. It can be backed up to the LWD servers which enables a player share feature. This requires players to have a copy of the Realm Works Player software and enables the Dungeon Master to reveal snippets (see the screenshots above, every 'section' of text with a button to the left is a snippet) to the players once they have discovered that information in a game session. There is a web service in the works but it's been in the works for years with no hint on when that will be available. That would replicate the current experience though so players would need to be invited to the GMs realm to see the content the GM decides to share. It's not being designed as a website where anyone can go to look stuff up.

    2) Someone who just wanted to see the maps would need what ?
    If someone wants to just see the maps they should use the Community Atlas as it exists today. This is not a replacement for the website. The intention of this is to provide a full campaign world for DMs to explore and use in their games.

    3) is this sort of like a VTT ?
    Yes and No. VTT focus on letting you replicate the table-top experience over the internet, it gives you the tools you need to play the game. Think of this tool more like a digital binder for a DM. It's where you put your prep notes, collect all the monsters you want to use, document the locations, the magic items, etc. It does have some features that many VTT's offer; you can add fog of war on a map for example but it does not intend to be a VTT. It could be used to supplement a VTT or tabletop experience.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2018
     
    That wouldn't work for me then. Thanks for the information.
    • CommentAuthorGThiel
    • CommentTimeApr 16th 2018
     
    @ Shessar RW can handle more than one campaign easily. Each realm you develop is it's own campaign. Importantly, if you want to share information, monsters, spells, traps,etc between realms, you can export from one campaign and import into as many as you want. True, you can only have one campaign open in the program during a gaming session, but that should not be an issue. When not actively gaming, during prep sessions for example, it is easy to switch from realm to realm.

    As a GM, you are allowed to have the program installed on up to 3 computers at a time, with any one being active. If I start working on my laptop sitting in a coffee shop, I can sync the realm to the cloud at Lone Wolf and later sync back to my home desktop. At the current time, you are only required to access their server if you are creating a new realm or if you want to sync between your computers. And the latter is not required as you can create a backup of your realm on one computer, move that backup to a different computer and restore from it.

    In the future, after they get their content market working, they will be going to a monthly fee for cloud access, but as I bought the program 3-4 yrs ago and haven't had to pay that charge yet, I am not bothered by the future cost. The content market (if they can get bugs worked out between themselves and Paizo) will allow you to purchase pre-entered modules which you can use as you will.

    During a gaming session, the program allows you to connect to two monitors, one for the GM's hidden use and the other for the players to view. As the players explore, the GM can reveal what they have seen to the players. So if you have pictures of something you want them to see. you would have it entered into RW and at the appropriate time, reveal it to the players and the program remembers what has been revealed. This is very useful during a dungeon adventure, as the GM can unmask the room that the players have entered and reveal it to them. No more trying to verbally describe room sized and where things in the room are.

    I am slorry that there has been confusion concerning the linkages between the atlas project and the Artemisia RW project. We are trying to do something that even Lone Wolf (LWD) hasn't (as far as I know) tried, creating a collaborative realm where many people can and will contribute to create something greater than the sum of its parts. It is important to us that this NOT be a commercial product and we are being careful to ensure that nothing we use is owned by anyone else. I have been involved in RPG gaming for over 40 years and this product makes life so much easier.

    As to mapping with CC3+, I've only been doing it for about 6 months. Here is a copy of a level of my megadungeon that i first started creating 30+ years ago, initially on paoer. In RW, I have imported this map image, and have an entry for each room in it. I have placed a "pin" in each room on the map that links to the room description topic. so that when the players are exploring, I can click on the pin and the room description is brought up. If there are monsters in the room, I can click on the auto-link that brings up that monster's stats.

    Jerry
      Entry Hall of TAU export.jpg
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeApr 16th 2018
     
    Jerry, I went back to re-read where I had seen the statement about needing a windows user login for each realm and realize now that it said for each account, not each realm. I now see that these are two different things. I'm so glad you pointed out that I was wrong. Thanks.

    Everything you've said gives me the feeling that I really NEED the Realm Works software, but I have one more question on connecting a second screen when using a laptop. Does it use the windows duplicate/r extended screen or does it have it's own functionality? You know what, I'll just go to the RW site to get my questions answered rather than clog up the PF forums with RW stuff. Thanks again for the info. :)
    • CommentAuthorJosh.P.
    • CommentTimeApr 16th 2018 edited
     
    The Player View feature displays pictures on an application window that it projects to specific screens using the duplicate screen stuff built into windows. I have 3 extended screens in my config (my screen, player facing screen, projector). It gives you control over which window to display the player facing output to (which can be your own screen) and then it creates a window there that it displays the pictures to.

    My players love this. I show them pictures of monsters, locations, items, etc. Picture says a 1000 words so to say. I've got my player facing screen hanging from the roof directed at the party. I don't need to see it myself as I can see and control the output on my screen.

    A Map

    They see left while I use right.

    A Map
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeApr 16th 2018 edited
     
    Interesting setup. I also use a projector for my setup, but I use the projector to show both illustrations, and for the battlemap (we use a VTT, even if everyone is local, found it better than using miniatures, so I project on a regular hanging projector screen, and not the table). For practical purposes, I have a completely separate computer controlling the projector (running the player client of the VTT software and my homebrew image viewer). Of course, everything is controlled from appropriate software running on my computer, I don't like to resort to using remote desktop software to manipulate the remote desktop directly, that is just clunky.
    I especially love this for VTT use, since the player client follows any movement I do in the GM client, but of course, it only shows what the players would actually see

    Not that I am really looking into acquiring RW at this point anyway, but I assume the player view only works on a separate monitor connected to the same PC, or can I start the RW client on both computers, and basically remote it (similar to my VTT software, only showing players what they are allowed to see)?
    • CommentAuthorJosh.P.
    • CommentTimeApr 16th 2018 edited
     
    I control the Map using MapTool (free VTT application) that I have running on the same PC. I run it twice and create a local network connection between the two clients. But we love miniatures (I have 1000s) and use real dice also.

    I tried using dynamic lighting but it was a lot of micro management having to move virtual tokens as well as manage everything else so we abandoned that and went back to just normal fog of war which works really well.

    You are correct in that it relies on the duel screen functionality within Windows. Not sure if there is technology to allow you to extend your monitor remotely. I assume there probably is but I've not tested it.

    Realm Works does have another way of sharing information with the players and that is to use the Player Version. Note: This is NOT a live sync system. But basically the DM can click the little green buttons to the left of snippets and that flags them as player visible. The next time the players log into their copy they can see everything that has been revealed.

    A lot of people who use VTT's go 'huh, its not live sync? why bother?'

    Basically they designed this with the idea that it would be cool for the players to be able to access a virtual repository of everything they have learnt. Where they have been, what they have found, who they spoke to. The DM can reveal as much or as little as they like very quickly but to keep the focus on the game occurring at the table it does not update live. It becomes a resource for the players to bring to the table to help with previous sessions ensuring they are focusing on the current session as well as the laptop. I like the idea but I suspect they will implement live sync at some point in the future. Especially once they release the web-browser client they have hinted about for a few years now.

    GM see's the left while the player's see the right. This is cool for magic items as you only reveal what the players have discovered so far ;)

    A Map
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeApr 16th 2018
     
    Perfect. I've been using a connected TV and extended screen to show maps and pictures to players. But of course I loose track of where my cursor is and listen to the players snicker as I try to locate the darned little arrow. Then dragging things back and forth is awkward and at times annoying.

    This software looks like it will streamline a lot. I'm sold. Now I just need to get this stupid itchy cast off of my hand so that I can start entering info into it (and make more maps).

    Thanks for all of the screen shots guys. They really helped explain how you were using the atlas maps as well as how the software works. Good stuff!
    • CommentAuthorkbs666
    • CommentTimeApr 16th 2018
     
    Hello, I'm another contributor on the RW project. I was reading this thread and hearing there were concerns, Josh and Jerry seem to be dealing really well with everything.

    Someone did ask to see the EULA for the project and I guess that got missed in the back and forth so I'll put it here:

    License Agreement
    All the content in this campaign world are copyright their respective creators. By downloading this package, you are given the rights defined below.
    You can use the content for personal use only
    You can edit the content, and use the resulting content for personal use
    You can print the content and use the printouts for personal use

    Definition of personal use in this context:
    You can share the content with players in your gaming group or other small closed circle.
    You can use the maps in virtual table top software, as long as they are primarily only accessible by you and your closed circle (Some additional viewers are fine, making the map generally available for any user in the system to use is not)
    You can share the content (originals or your modifications) on a web site that is primarily for your gaming group or closed circle.

    You are NOT allowed to:
    Use these content for commercial purposes, such as, but not limited to selling them, using them in commercial products or using them in commercials.
    Post them on a web site for the public to download
    Include them, in whole or in part, in other products for public consumption, free or not. (You may however publish a product that doesn't contain the content, but refers the readers to this site to download them)
    Claim these as your own. The copyright still belongs to the original artist even if you make modifications to them.
    Use or modify them in anyway the reflects negatively on the original artist or this atlas.
    Most content in this collection includes contact details for the artist. Please contact them if you wish to negotiate other uses for a map.

    Review and Promotional Work
    Permission is granted to post screenshots, video of the community pack as long as there is a link pointing the user back to the community project. ‚Äč


    As someone who has little if any artistic ability I greatly respect those who do and hope that the artists involved in the atlas project will see our efforts as an homage to their talents. Our hope is that by fleshing out the world the maps depict more people will see and enjoy them.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeApr 19th 2018
     
    Thank you for that, kbs666.

    It has certainly cleared up any remaining doubts in my mind.

    So it seems that the only real problem we ever had was that we didn't have a public consultation about things before they all just kind of happened (or at least if we did I never saw the thread). If we had, then none of the confusion would ever have happened, and we might not have lost 2 very significant mappers from the Atlas project.

    I say 'lost', but there is always hope that they will return one day when they are ready - especially if they see this thread and realise that we were just very confused and maybe a tiny bit alarmed by what we didn't understand :)

    Looking forward to a fruitful association into the future :)