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      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2018 edited
     
    So, I wanted to create a special map to celebrate the 1-year anniversary for the Community Atlas.

    So, I decided to make a map using CC-DOS (With CC-Pro 1.2). My first challenge was getting the coastline exported from a modern CC3+ map and onto an old CC-DOS map (.FCD file). CC-DOS claims to be able to import .dxf files, but after exporting the coastline in .dxf format from CC3+, the result after importing to CC-DOS was anything but correct. In the end, I ended up creating a script file by copying the coordinates from the list window in CC3+ and doing a couple of search/replace tricks to generate a script file that would draw a polygon using the same coordinates when run under CC-DOS. Unfortunately, I also ran into a limit in CC-DOS, it seems a polygon can only have 126 nodes. So I had to use Joe's great new SIMPLIFY command on the coastline first followed by a few manual node deletions to bring it down to 126 before I could proceed.
    I initially also tried just typing in about 30 nodes manually, and then fractalizing the landmass, but I learned that CC-DOS fractalization turns the polygon into lots of individual lines, with no easy way to join them back together. The fractalized landmass looked quite good until I realized this, but with individual lines instead of a polygon, I didn't have any way to fill it, so that attempt didn't work out well.

    After importing the landmass, mapping in CC-DOS isn't that different from CC3+. It is certainly MUCH more clunky, and it is severely lacking in toolbars, so I am glad I already knew the text equivalent of most commands before going ahead. Of course, it also lacks a LOT of the tools and commands I am used to. I was a bit frustrated from the lack of a send to back command, it only had a send to front command (as far as I could figure), which technically allowed me to do the same, just with a bit more work. And forget sheets and drawing tools and effects.
    An interesting thing about CC-DOS is that the symbols aren't really symbols, they are just grouped entities. For practical purposes, they behave the same however. Another issue with the symbols is that they all had transparent background, so I had to be very careful about symbol overlapping, or it would look really messy.

    Finally, importing the map back into CC3+ also gave me some challenges. First of all, not all fill styles translate to the same fill style in CC3+, so I had to change a few fill styles. Also, CC-Dos allowed me to specify if I wanted outline individually on each entity, but in CC3+, that is defined on the fill level, so many entities ended up with an outline that shouldn't be there. Symbols also look "hollower" in CC3+, this is due to to the increased screen resolution and the use of 0-width lines. The low resolution of running in MS-DOS made simple line pattern fill looks more solid. The final issue is fonts. CC3+ does not handle those old fonts used by CC-DOS correctly, so all fonts use a plain Arial font instead when displayed. After changing the fill styles, the map do look mostly like it looked in CC-DOS however, if not 100%.

    Note that brush pattern fill styles are not scaled, so if you look at for example the shallow water lines around the island, they stay the same size as you zoom in, which means that there will be many more of them. The distance (measured on screen) between each line will stay exactly the same, but this means that the distance (measured in map) becomes smaller as you zoom in.

    Atlas Entry

    quake island-1.PNGMS-DOS-2018-01-08-18-06-10.pngImage2.png

     
    • CommentAuthorpool7
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2018
     
    Gotta love the CC-DOS "style" :)
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      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2018
     
    Not a fan of the old style, I'm afraid.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2018
     
    I have no idea what you just said, Remy, but it sounds very impressive.

    I prefer the CC3+ conversion :)
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2018 edited
     
    Posted By: LoopysueI prefer the CC3+ conversion :)
    I am guessing you refer to the CC3+ original, from Shessar's Mike Schley style Alarius map (third image)?

    Posted By: QuentenNot a fan of the old style, I'm afraid.
    Well, it is not the most beautiful of styles, I'll agree to that, but there is something alluring to me about the simplicity of these maps. They were much more focused on actually being a map, rather than a piece of art. Of course a map can be both, but to me, functionality is the most important aspect. The main idea about this map is to show the evolution of Campaign Cartographer though, not to be a pretty wall piece. (And you can of course make nice functional maps in much prettier styles too)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2018
     
    Oh dear! *BLUSH*

    Sorry, Remy!
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2018
     
    True enough Remy, and perhaps a good thing to highlight the changes. Perhaps a CC2 map next.
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2018
     
    Neat map, Remy! I like this style for quick, easy simple maps. But CC-DOS? How old is that????? :)
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      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2018 edited
     
    Perhaps, but not by me at this time. A CC2 style map is much simpler though, sine CC3+ still includes that style.

    Doing this CC-DOS map was way fun though, I met quite a few hurdles in my attempt to get the actual landmass from the CC3+ map and to the CC-DOS map. But CC-DOS is surprisingly nice to work with, taking into account that it is a DOS program after all. Wish I had owned it back in the day, I still remember all this exciting ads in Dragon magazine when I was still a youth with an empty wallet. Never thought I would end up doing work for that very same company (and product)
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2018 edited
     
    Posted By: LoreleiNeat map, Remy! I like this style for quick, easy simple maps. But CC-DOS? How old is that????? :)
    Thanks. The copyright on the version I used for this map said 1996. But the original version is older than that, I think this is one of the later of the DOS releases.
    Nothing quick about the maps though, especially as long as you do them in CC-DOS.
    • CommentAuthorBarliman
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2018
     
    Amazing how far it's come since then.
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      CommentAuthorRalf
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2018
     
    Very neat. Seeing CC-DOS maps always brings a smile to my face. :)
  1.  
    I remember drawing those symbols. Pretty much the extent of my artistic ability, though the outlines carried through to CC2 and I coloured them with the 256 colour palette. Thank goodness for genuine artists!
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2018
     
    The fun thing is that these symbols are still part of any modern CC3+ installation. You'll find the original symbols in the @Symbols\Maps\Line folder.

    I think you can still make nice maps based on those symbols. I intentionally used CC-DOS itself to make this map, with all the limitations that included (including my limited familiarity with it), but if you combine these symbols with the modern feature of CC3+, I think the result can be nice.


    Posted By: Simon RogersThank goodness for genuine artists!
    I'll heartily agree with that. While I am still fond of those old symbols, I am also very fond of all the beautiful symbols and fills we have today in modern CC3+. And being far from artistic myself, I need those artists to create the pretty symbols for me, so I can compose maps from them.
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2018
     
    If it wasn't for CC2/CC3/CC3Plus, none of my maps would be online.
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2018 edited
     
    I am something of a Software Nostalgia Nerd. Reading Remy's description of everything he went through to make this map put a real smile on my face. But it's not just the effort of figuring out how to use the old software, it's the look of the map that I find pleasing too. Love it!

    Simon, you were enough of an artist to excite us older gamers with awesome mapping software. I didn't own a computer during the CC-DOS days but CC2v5 was the first software my husband bought me as a birthday gift and it was the envy of the other DMs in our gaming group. I used the line symbols almost as often as I used the colored symbols. Good stuff!

    Monsen, Thanks for taking the time to do this map. It made my day. :D
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2018 edited
     
    Glad you liked it. It was fun making it.

    I tweaked the brush pattern fills in the CC3+ version to make it look much more like the CC-DOS original, and updated the image in the first post. I had completely forgotten that the brush patterns were editable. I think this made the final map much better, the sea fills were a bit overpowering before when compared with the CC-DOS original, but now they look much more like it.


    Posted By: JimPIf it wasn't for CC2/CC3/CC3Plus, none of my maps would be online.
    You and me both.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDogtag
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2018 edited
     
    Posted By: ShessarCC2v5 was the first software my husband bought me as a birthday gift and it was the envy of the other DMs in our gaming group.
    CC2 v5 was my first version too!  :D
    •  
      CommentAuthorDogtag
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2018
     
    @Monsen: Quent and Gerritown. Very subtle.  :P;)
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2018
     
    Don't know how you come up with those wonderful names, Remy.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDogtag
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2018
     
    ... Said the pot to the kettle. ;)
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeJan 9th 2018
     
    You'll keep, Baron Doggetage! :D
    •  
      CommentAuthorDogtag
    • CommentTimeJan 10th 2018 edited
     
    8-|
  2.  
    Posted By: ShessarI

    Simon, you were enough of an artist to excite us older gamers with awesome mapping software. I didn't own a computer during the CC-DOS days but CC2v5 was the first software my husband bought me as a birthday gift and it was the envy of the other DMs in our gaming group. I used the line symbols almost as often as I used the colored symbols. Good stuff!



    Thank you! I remember the excitement when we got our first phone order. I've often toyed with removing the old style from CC3+, as it's been superceded, but not quite been able to bring myself to do it.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeJan 10th 2018 edited
     
    Posted By: Simon RogersI've often toyed with removing the old style from CC3+, as it's been superceded, but not quite been able to bring myself to do it.
    Please don't. It doesn't take much space, and vector catalogs are basically maintenance free anyway. And I think it is nice that the software carries with it a bit of its history.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeJan 10th 2018
     
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it :)
    • CommentAuthorJimP
    • CommentTimeJan 10th 2018
     
    I like the vector symbols. I still use them in many of my maps.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDogtag
    • CommentTimeJan 11th 2018
     
    Posted By: Monsen
    Posted By: Simon RogersI've often toyed with removing the old style from CC3+, as it's been superceded, but not quite been able to bring myself to do it.
    Please don't. It doesn't take much space, and vector catalogs are basically maintenance free anyway. And I think it is nice that the software carries with it a bit of its history.
    This. A thousand times, this.
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeJan 11th 2018
     
    No no!!! Even I the resident photorealistic mapper uses these symbols!! I have often used them for quick simple maps for my niece and nephews games. I love the simplicity of the line art
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeJan 11th 2018
     
    I am going to echo everyone's protests...

    No, don't remove them! Their simplicity is ideal in some instances. I use them occasionally to represent maps drawn by an ancient silver dragon that sometimes offers guidance to the PCs. I need these symbols!
    •  
      CommentAuthorRalf
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    Rest assured that I'd vehemently object if Simon got the crazy notion to go ahead with such an absurd idea! ;)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    Yes, Simon.

    Don't be absurd! :P

    Those symbols must grow on people, as I have to admit there is something pleasing in their simplicity :)
    • CommentAuthorBarliman
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    As an antiquarian by nature and a historian by training, I'd hate to see these artifacts disposed of. :)