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    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017 edited
     
    The City of Sanctuary is positioned on the north coast of the southern landmass of Malajuri (beautifully mapped in the Schley style by Lorelei), looking out over the Trinagonga Gulf and the Pelabua Yang Sea. On a global scale its not really all that far to the west of The regional map of Sanctuary Valley, though it appears to lie near the estuary of a separate river of its own, which currently has no name... How about "The River Sanctuary", Lorelei?

    Location map.JPG

    In the parent map it is more or less surrounded by a tropical forest that lines the shore, so I am assuming that this is a tropical or sub-tropical position and that the climate is reasonably wet - green land. The presence of a massive agricultural apron also suggests the land is far from being a desert.

    The sample map that Lorelei provided when asked what kind of city map was preferred for this region certainly has a rich green tapestry around it.

    sample city2.jpg

    I have started this thread now, even though I am still not ready to map the city. This is because with Remy's permission (Remy Monsen) I am making a new set of city scale tree symbols and a couple of textures to use in the map. When the map is done these new city trees and fills will be stored in/with the Atlas, and available for others to use in their own maps if they wish.

    Many, many thanks to Remy, who will be constructing the actual catalogue from the png symbols I send to him :D

    TEMP.JPG

    This is only a half way example of what I am doing. The work is very incomplete - as you will note from the total lack of palm trees, though I have already managed to create my first ever varicolour fruit tree symbols for this set.

    The tree catalogue and the 2-3 fills I am making will amount to approximately 50MB of download space. I'm curious to know if this is a generally acceptable size?
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017
     
    It's fine by me - your work is like owning a Cartographer's Michelangelo
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017
     
    Thanks Quenten :)

    Though I can only hope to live up to that lofty description by about 1/4 of the way, or so - if that ;)
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017
     
    OK, you can be downgraded to Titian, if that helps. :)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017
     
    What I do is mostly smoke and mirrors - heaps of Sheet effects, aided by Blender trees (not Vue this time), and CC3 varicolour symbol technology.

    You'll see ;)
    • CommentAuthorTonnichiwa
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017 edited
     
    Nice job Sue, I really like the new symbols you've made :) And I can't wait to see what you do with this!
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017
     
    Im quite excited to see this develop :) Sue, please take all liberties with this map - it is yours, not mine. I left some rivers and some spaces unnamed so that any regional mapper can feel free to name any forest, river, grassland, etc. to their content :) Enjoy!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017 edited
     
    Thanks Tonnichiwa :)

    Aw Lorelei :) Maybe its the River Sanctuary - unless I have a better idea before I get around to mapping the city that is. I'm very excited about doing this map. It's not going to be the same as Merelan City was because I've learned a few more tricks since then. I've also been reading up about the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, which some archaeologists believe really did exist, but in the form of the hanging gardens of Nineveh, which was built by the Mesopotamian King, Ashurnasirpal II, sometime between 883–859 BC, for the love of his queen, Tashmetu-sharrat, who missed her green and mountainous homeland. Theirs is the only documented love story in the entire history of the Mesopotamian royal family, and it fits very nicely with the legend of Babylon and its hanging gardens (the name Babylon meaning little more than Gate of the Gods and used to describe several great cities of the time).

    Do you mind if I add a canal from the upper reaches of the currently nameless river to feed the cascades pouring down from the top levels of the garden? I won't go as far as to cut a canal through a mountain as King Ashurnasirpal did, but I really love the idea of all the waterfalls and a tiered garden with a palace the size of Windsor Castle on top of it all.

    EDIT: I'm not the world's most precise historian, since history bored me silly at school :O So if anyone wants to check the story I got it from here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging_Gardens_of_Babylon
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017
     
    What a fantastic idea - we will expect to see it in the map notes, I hope?
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017
     
    If the canal is ok with Lorelei, and if I don't fail and mess up quite hugely :P
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017
     
    ANYTHING is ok with me. Sue, you are a true artist and I trust your creative intent far greater than my own :) Have at it, lady!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017
     
    Thank you again, Lorelei :D

    I won't map the entire course of it or anything - just the bit that comes into the city, so that whoever does the regional map of the hinterland gets to lay in the actual course of it to suit their own map ;)

    That's because if it was left to me, it would be a dead straight line, but that's not always the best way to build a canal in a fantasy world, where dead straight lines are usually a bit of a pain in the composition.

    By the time the canal gets to the city it will be running across an aqueduct to reach the top of the artificial mountain that results from the building of the hanging gardens.

    Who knows - maybe you will end up doing the battle map of the palace one day? Apparently it was about the same size as Windsor Palace!
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017
     
    I will most certainly be doing some floorplans and battlemaps of this city :) I've already got a load of stuff on reserve for when i finish up my commission work for Pelgrane Press (Poseiden's Temple on one of Quenten's map, a building in Dunor, a village in Dworn, and i've reserved Charles's Lanka regional map), but there is ALWAYS time for a space on one of your glorious maps! Have fun!
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017
     
    I'm so honoured that you will be doing a temple on my map - Helmonte I presume. I'm just so excited, Lorelei!!!!!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017
     
    Well, I have a palace and hanging gardens planned, I'd better get down to some actual planning work and make this city with a few other attractions besides just the one ;)

    Remy - in a city map, how many feet in a map unit?

    I've worked out the city needs to be at the very least 3 miles in diameter - far bigger than Merelan City. I had the ratio of feet to units wrong in MC right from the start, such that I was having to use the house symbols at 2.5 - 3.5 larger than the default 1, just to compensate for the error.

    Since this will be available to everyone, I'd really like to do it right this time.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017
     
    Posted By: LoopysueRemy - in a city map, how many feet in a map unit?
    One.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017
     
    Thank you :D

    So by that reckoning the map itself needs to be about 15000 units square...

    Is that way too big for the Atlas?

    I could do it half that size and use all the symbols at .5 instead of 1?
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017 edited
     
    Posted By: LoopysueSo by that reckoning the map itself needs to be about 15000 units square...
    Just how large are you planning on making this thing? Mapping a city that size will take forever. (and a lot of dedication).


    Posted By: LoopysueIs that way too big for the Atlas?
    Technically no, but a map that size will put some strain on the system of anyone opening it (based on the number of entities a map of that size would contain, the size in itself doesn't matter)


    Posted By: LoopysueI could do it half that size and use all the symbols at .5 instead of 1?
    Eh, that would only accomplish one single thing, making the information tools in CC3 report wrong distances, nothing else. It would not have any advantages at all for map performance.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017
     
    LOL! I've been reading a lot of info about Babylon this morning. It was supposedly a square walled city with 14 km sides.

    I thought 3 miles would be relatively small.

    I'm now thinking of doing just 5000 units square - same map size as Merelan City, but with the symbols at 1 instead of 2.5 - 3
    •  
      CommentAuthorDogtag
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017
     
    I've posted this before but I think it's worth revisiting now and then. Here is a list of city mapping tips and suggestions from the ProFantasy blog.

    Also, Clercon (aka Pär Lindström) addressed the issue of city map size on his blog, though that was also before CC3+ came out.

    Cheers,
    ~Dogtag
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017
     
    Thanks Dogtag. I'll do a bit more revision ;)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017 edited
     
    I spent ages working on the sand, the grass, the mud and the cobbles...

    Screen shot.JPG

    Only to realise that none of it really matters once the map is rendered out at a scale where I can fit the whole city into 10,000 x 10,000 px :(

    City of Sanctuary 01.JPG

    Oh well - back to the drawing board!
    • CommentAuthorBarliman
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017
     
    The straw roofs look really good.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2017
     
    The house and the ocean fill are CC3, and the cliffs are Bogie. The rest of it is mine.

    While there is nothing inherently wrong with the fills I've made, the LOD is unnecessary. They would be fine in a small village map where everything could be rendered out larger, but not so great in a city, where everything is very tiny.

    Now that I look at them again this morning I realise that not all is lost. The detail might be invisible to the rest of you, but what I have managed to do is create a set of four textures that are more than just simply plain colours like Bitmap A, but which has virtually no redundancy at all. And with the sand in particular I've somehow managed to do it with a relatively large built in ripple pattern - a notoriously difficult thing to do.

    I'm not as unhappy about them now as I was last night, and I may well use them anyway ;)
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2017
     
    I LOVE the ripples in the water - just fantastic
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2017
     
    Posted By: LoopysueOnly to realise that none of it really matters once the map is rendered out at a scale where I can fit the whole city into 10,000 x 10,000 px
    Also remember that people using the .fcw file can zoom in to your details, and may also export individual section of the city, so the detail isn't wasted. That said, that probably not the main use for the city, so be careful not giving yourself too much work in the tiny detail department. That's the reason many people never complete their cities, because if you give the same attention to detail as a 3 house village, it does take an obscene amount of time and is quite repetitive.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2017 edited
     
    Quenten...

    Ripples?

    Oh them! Just a few white lines on three sheets with varying amounts of blur. That's all ;)

    Think I need to leave the wave edge sheet a bit less blurry


    Remy....

    Thanks Remy - I will bear this in mind. For some reason the LOD in Merelan City worked just fine.... and now I think I may have understood that I don't need to create 1000 pi fills, but only 500 pi, or so - since the fills that worked just fine in MC are the ones that I was trying to replace in this map - the comparatively low res Bogie fills.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    A bit more work on the test piece

    Still not happy with the grass, but the sand, soil and cobbles are now just about right.
      City of Sanctuary 02.JPG
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    Perfection :)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    Thanks Lorelei :)

    I will never again criticise anyone else's city textures. They don't look right plain (to me), and they look even worse with a bit of texture. Its incredibly easy to either overdo, or underdo it. Overland and dungeon fills are FAR easier!

    I did a better one since the one above, as I suddenly had the bright idea of using an 'equalise' node to iron out the light and dark patches in the grass, but its only fractional differences, so I'll leave it at that for now and get on with the palm trees. Better had - since this texturing job was only supposed to take a couple of hours (instead of about 3 days), and be just a bit of light relief from doing the trees! LOL!
    • CommentAuthorHadrianVI
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    This is incredibly beautiful.
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    I agree.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    Aw thank you guys :D

    That makes it all worth all the trouble :D
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime7 days ago edited
     
    Right. I still haven't done the palm trees, but I've got distracted down another side route. Scale.

    I started off thinking that I was going to wrap this city around that nice little bay area just to the north west of the marker on Lorelei's main map:

    Ref Map.png

    Once I realised that it wasn't really going to be feasible to do a city map much larger than Merelan City (that's a square mile), I took the info distance tool to Lorelei's map, and discovered that a city would have to be the size of Tokyo to wrap around that nice 'little' cove area, and way beyond the scope of my little square mile.

    As a result of this discovery I have chosen one of the tiny segments of the coastline right next to the mouth of the river (that segment being in itself 3 miles long), and decided to get a little creative with it - as long as on average it follows that general line on the big map.

    Is that ok?
    • CommentAuthorScottA
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    I love the waves. You can almost hear the gentle lapping of the water along the beach. Lovely!
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    Posted By: LoopysueIs that ok?
    Yes. There will always be details not visible on a map. The intention with every detail map made from another map is to add any detail you feel like that would be plausible. That little 3-mile coast line segment would probably be full of bays and beaches and cliffs and lagoons and whatnot.
    The city is also probably MUCH smaller than that city symbol, since symbols need to be a certain size to see them.
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    Thanks Scott :)

    That's a similar but simplified version of the water around Merelan City. If you are interested in finding out how to do it, and when the FCW is ready for uploading, you will see there are only three effects on each of the three water sheets, and they aren't at all complicated to set up - but the order in which they are placed is absolutely critical ;)

    Thanks Remy :)

    I have worked out that if the city symbol on the main map was to scale it would be the size of London, and each of those houses would cover an entire borough of the city.

    This is a fairly major river, being one of only three (I think) that flow through the massive agricultural belt in the continent, so it might have quite a huge estuary with lots of mud flat islands. There would have to be a port, probably protected from the dangerous waters of the estuary by a low rocky headland of some kind, and a bay sweeping away from the estuary.

    These are all very fleeting ideas at the moment. I might come up with something completely different yet ;)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime7 days ago edited
     
    I got distracted again by thoughts on layout

    Any comments welcome. Sorry about the livid green notes. There is, somewhere on this map, a sample of the largest building in the thatched bitmap B range, just to give the scale of the city.

    I know! The textures are horribly sick with redundancy, but this is only the rough sketch just yet. I haven't even finished making the trees, so the work in earnest will have to wait a bit for now.
      City of Sanctuary 012.JPG
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTime7 days ago
     
    Layout looks good to me.
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    Well this is fascinating! Can't wait to see the progression :)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime6 days ago edited
     
    Thanks :)

    I seem to have done something bad with the image. I will un-embed it.

    I also realised there's farmland more than anything else around the city. No problem - I was a bit tired last night, and less forest means fewer symbols ;)
    • CommentAuthorCalibre
    • CommentTime6 days ago
     
    Love it, especially showing the process :)


    Cal
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime6 days ago edited
     
    Thanks Calibre :)

    Showing the whole thing is a habit I've picked up along the way. Unfortunately that does tend to mean my threads grow to extreme lengths, but I always hope they are worth reading ;)

    Here is another quandary I've got with this map and its symbols:

    I've already made the ordinary and fruit tree symbols, but I'm having some trouble with the palm trees to complete the set.

    I've had to resort to drawing them by hand, but I've never actually seen a real palm tree. Well... not since I was about 5, when the ones growing all the way along the sea front where I grew up died in one of the many storms and the council decided not to bother replanting them.

    I've done one so far and here it is I a screen shot with a couple of the other trees. The question is, does it look even remotely half right, and is it too cartoonish to go with the rest?

    Palm question.JPG

    Also - the tricky thing about shadows.

    Palms are of a shape to warrant in-built shadows in maps where shadows are in use, but that means the symbol cannot be rotated or mirrored several times in the same map. That means the question is - to make an inbuilt shadow for it... or not?

    I'm trying to keep the sheer size of this set down to a bare minimum, so its not a burden on people who want to download it from the Atlas.

    Then there is the additional quandary of just how sharp those shadows should be - bearing in mind that most shadows in CC3 are at least slightly blurred.

    And then - how long to make them....

    And so on...

    I could feasibly create a secondary symbol that is just the shadow, but that would mean people would need to place the shadow, and then the palm tree on top of it.

    Hmmmm......

    EDIT: Mind you - if all the shadows were placed first, after the lower trees were placed, then the palm trees were placed on the shadows... I think it might look quite good.

    I'll make a few shadows and see what people think :)
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime5 days ago edited
     
    I think I may have solved this palm tree problem now. I've made three separate shadows to use with them so that the palm's themselves can be rotated or reflected at will :)

    EDIT: In case anyone is wondering the oak tree (on which the rest of the large trees are modelled) grows to 50-100 feet tall, whereas palm trees can be nearly 200 feet tall - twice the height. There are also smaller palms, but that just means the shadow should be put down before the other trees, as well as the palms ;)
      SUETREECHART.JPG
    •  
      CommentAuthorDogtag
    • CommentTime5 days ago
     
    These look nice, though I'm not sure how much detail you need for a city-scale map. Out of curiosity, why do you think "palms are of a shape to warrant in-built shadows?" At least, at the city-scale level?
    • CommentAuthorLorelei
    • CommentTime5 days ago
     
    Ooohhh Sue, these look pretty darn good!
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime5 days ago
     
    Aw thank you - both :D

    I was a bit worried since the pictures online were all about as large and clear as my own 45 yr old memory. Not worried about giving people a laugh, but worried about having to draw them all over again ;)

    Dogtag - While the way that CC3 does shadows is excellent for most purposes, and drop shadow might have done just as well at city scale (where I know they will be little more than a splash of colour here and there), I don't think there's a way to do the trunk of the tree like this (below), for when people zoom in to the finished FCW and want to grab themselves a close up shot.
      SUETREECHART2.JPG
    •  
      CommentAuthorDogtag
    • CommentTime5 days ago edited
     
    As I've mentioned before, city maps (full cities that is) are not generally intended for very close zooms or to be used as battle maps. In fact, I expect that, once you've made the city map, other mappers may want to map specific districts or areas of the city in more detail. Yet, even then, I personally think a decent drop shadow conveys the nature and shape of the palm trees sufficiently, but that's just my own opinion.

    Cheers,
    ~Dogtag
    • CommentAuthorLoopysue
    • CommentTime5 days ago edited
     
    I've done far more with dungeon scale fills than anything - which is showing rather badly in the first few attempts I made with the city fills. They were all too detailed to start with, but I've sorted them out now ;)

    I know I'm also trying to put too much detail into everything with these new city symbols I'm making, but then I enjoy zooming into an FCW city and seeing that the trees look like real trees (within the bounds of the resolution of the symbols), every bit as much as the CC3 rooftops look like real rooftops ;)
    •  
      CommentAuthorQuenten
    • CommentTime4 days ago
     
    The palms look great... but where are the coconuts? :)