There was a 'Beta' released at GenCon (I got one, gonna start playing with it after I got some bug issues resolved with Ralf Early this AM), so I suspect it will be available for purchase pretty darn quick.
a lot of us are still wondering about this.. mainly because of the original release schedual vs the actual we understand that PF has had issues hence why CD3 has taken longer but there is nothing on news of just upgrading or if we are out of luck etc.. cause honestly it seems unfair that we have to pay for CD again after we've already paid for the full thing after CC3 came out.
But as you know, people who bought the whole shebang after CC3 could speak about some updates that might take several monthsmore to get released.
If you had several products registered, but decided to go for the whole shebang, instead of buying the missing updates, and have a new registrartion for all, and say: Have 2 licences of perspectives and you bought the 2nd because you hoped most will be updated?
There are bad scenarios, and there are worse scenarios.
While it would be nice to see everything or almost everything updated... I doubt if that would happen.
Free CD3 upgrade, with possible free upgrades for the "doubles" you have (bought them in hope of that) is a fair compromise. Anything less than that would be unfair, and anything more than that is unlikely (even if it would be fair from most perspectives, Profantasy wants to earn some money).
But I am sure there are others who would draw the line elsewhere.
Some would draw at the 1 year line.
Some would say: people who ordered stuff when the planned schedule made them expect to get updates should get the expected updates, but nothing else.
Some would say: Everything bought after CC3...
I've been creating CD3 installs, testing and uploading them all over the weekend (note also that yesterday was a bank holiday in the UK). It takes longer than I want, because the files are so big and DSL upload speed is limited. A full CD3 install takes about 4-5 hours to upload to the server. Then I get feedback that something is wrong in the install, I fix, rebuild, re-upload, ... you get the picture.
We're also creating a reduced size install for those with low bandwidths, and an option to download the missing stuff (very high resolution bitmaps) separately.
As soon as we're set for release, I'll have news on prices, upgrades, etc.
I've been fixing things in the CD3 release all day. Simon noticed something that, while not terribly complicated, needed a while to fix. It's done now, but I need to redo the lower-bandwidth version of the symbol catalogs. That'll be done early tomorrow, then I can build a new release candidate.
Just a quick query - my mum has told me that she has got me a copy of City Designer Pro from a games store, not realising that the new version is imminent. Will I be able to upgrade to CD3 from this, or is it a website only offer?
I believe that as long as you've got proof of purchase showing the date and such, PF will honour the upgrade. It's possible the process for upgrading might be a little trickier for you (you might have to scan the receipt and e-mail it in or something), but I do recall reading elsewhere that purchases made outside of PF's store will still be eligible for upgrade all the same.
Ralf: Idon't want to sound too impatient, but as you know many people bought CD Pro in hopes of upgrades and waiting for ages. I heard people who visited GenCon has access to prerelease versions, so it isn't a "closed beta" anymore. Have you considered giving people access to these prerelease versions?
I think the final release is on the way, thus it would be a waste of time to make a special beta release. I think now it is needed to focus on the final release and I guess it's just a question of days now.
Moreover, I recall NeonKnight mentioning that he had initial issues get his CD3 pre-release from GenCon working. So it sounds to me that this pre-release wasn't really a stable one. To be honest, I understand that it's probably in the best interests of PF to NOT release something that could in any number of unforeseen scenarios damage someone's computer - be it simply messing up a CC install or worse). It's more headaches than it's probably worth, especially when it seems clear at this point that release isn't more than a couple weeks away and more likely just a few days away.
Dally: In the time wewaited for CD3 we always heard, that Profantasy always make the right decisions and decide in favor of its users, yet, as you see there are a few users concerned about the update, and it is hard to see a solid answer. To my best knowledge, some of these users are already unhappy with the infromation flow.
Some of us use beta versions of various software on regular basis. Why? Since it is safe to do so in a VM, and learning about new software and new technologies is a good thing. And if you help to beta test software, and run it in VM and when it seems stable in different kinds of other environment you regularly use for testing, you can help to reduce the number of bugs with released software. It is good for both parties.
Why?
Since it would mean the software gets tested in different kinds of environments.
And tbh, I would prefer to have the extra time to learn CD3, see the crashes and problems in a test environments (install it to a few VMs) and have it stable and tested and known instead of a long wait and "vista bugs" in the stable as surprise.
As ShadoWWW is saying, doing an additional pre-release would just push the actual release back, something noone here wants I'd guess.... most noticeably me.
Update: Got another release candidate out to Simon and the beta-testers this morning, but some more issues have already been detected. Meaning there'll be another cycle tomorrow.
Agreed. My Gencon purchased Beta doesn't install properly, and I'd rather the bugs get ironed out for the release candidate, rather than have another buggy beta install.
I honestly don't care how long it takes.. what I care about is the whole thing of what the cut off date for free upgrades is (is it August 2007, because in my honest opinion that isn't exactly fair on those of us who brought CC3 + Upgrades after the inital release of CC3 and the Inital 'Upgrade' Release schedual).
If all your doing is testing bugs to do with the CC3/CD3 side of things and not art work, why must a 'full' install be redone each and every time? Common sense says it would be faster to just do the main section and get it out to test it rather then a full install each and every time.. It's how I do releases it's how most companies do releases.. even in beta.. if your testers have the majority of the data why resend it time and time again? If it's an Install problem then something is wrong there, because presuming your programming using Visual Studio or the like it makes the installer to your own specifications.
Also If we who brought before August 2007 are Not Intitaled to the Free upgrade, are we at least entitled to the actual CORE of CD3 with out the art work. That way we can at least use the new features that have been 2 years in the making and much talked about..
I'm not attacking the programmers bugs happen but I am attacking the fact that we keep being told wait until it's done Then we will tell you if your entitled to the update etc. Some of us just want to know firmly yes or no.. that's all.
It would also be nice if the explinations where posted by PF to the mailing list as well..
loydb: I see the problem from another perspective. As you remember the whole incident started with the topic rob mentioned. When CC3 got released with plans to update, we evaluated what would we get for free, and which is the best option to buy things. Sometimes we bought packages that had "2nd copies" of stuff we already had, since with updates it will be better for all.
Right now we not only waiting for CD3, but we are waiting to know to see exact dates announced for free updates by Ralf, and how many times it was promised for tomorrow?
Saying "Hey, you are entitled for a free update anyway, and if you want to beta test it and know what you are doing, why not? Use this user ide here to log in and download current betas just like the current beta testers do" costs almost nothing but would boosts confidence.
Right now, I very rarely use any Profantasy products anymore, just installd the last few annuals and haven't even seen what they can do. Why? Because sadly they don't bring much "happiness" with them, since it makes me remember a few issues.
You want a solid version as release, not something like the current betas. But how long a current candidate should stay bug free to be considered stable? Will we have problems with different OS versions again (since the current batch of beta testers can't find them)? Will it be as long as fixing CC3 and so on for Vista problems? And if such bugs will be discovered, and the beta periods extended for them before release, and it isn't any faster than before, will we get CD3 before Christmass? Before the next one?
I have never seen a release date for a free upgrade. Profantasy said it was available, and we got it. Didn't have to prove purchase date.
Profantasy provides far better customer support than any other commercial software company I have ever worked with. That includes as a private indivudual and as a person who installs/upgrades software for companies.
As far as I know, there was never a release date announced for CD3. Profantasy doesn't do that.
The biggest bug I know of, is Windows Vista. As someone who has done computer tech support for 20 years, Vista doesn't even come up to Windows for Workgroups standards.
If you need help with CC3 and its add-ons, just ask. Many of us here turn out maps using most of the software Profantasy sells.
Jim, When they had the original upgrade schedual listed it was:
DD3 - 6months CD3 - 6 - 18 months.
Or something along those lines CD3 was I can clearly remember within the next year - year and a half.
Ralph and the others have acknowledged that CD3 has taken them Far Longer then they expected, they also admitted time had to be taken from it's development to get the bugs fixed caused by vista.. As I said I'm not attacking that. All I want is a Firm Yes or No that I am going to have to pay again.. As I am on a PENSION, that means that I have to plan for what I buy and have to have the money to buy it.
I paid for CC3, DD, CD, COS after CC3 came out, originally the whole big point of buying it was at the most you would have to pay for if updates came out after a set date was the ART Update yet so far we have heard zip on if those of us stuck running the Compatability Update are going to be granted access to the New features for CD3. Heck if I wanted to make maps forever in the old CD style I'd have just brought CC2 and CD and left it at that.
IF you care to look at the history of both the mailing list and the forums I have been one of the biggest people asking PF for updates and information etc related to City Designer 3, why? Because 90% of my maps are not dungeons are not overland maps... they are City maps and I've been avidly awaiting CD 3 since it was announced.
As mentioned above in this post and the last the ORIGINAL release Schedual announced on the website (it has been changed now) stated X months for each product.. DD3 was 6months etc.. we Know that DD3 suffered some set backs due to issues outside of Profantasy's control.. I know the reasons I won't go into them. We also know that CD3 has suffered set backs and has taken them far far longer then they ever expected it to.. Is that their fault? NO I've never said that it was their fault. All I've asked for is information on who will be getting the free update and if those who do NOT get the free update and instead have only the compatability update are going to get the Features WITH OUT the artwork to go with those features. DD3 didn't ADD any new major features it added new artwork, CD while great can't easily be used with CC3, oh yes it supports sheets etc but you can't easily make new artwork that fits with the rest of the features of CC3 why? Because as Ralph and Simon have said they had to code those features (Roof slant shadows etc etc etc).
Now we know that some of those features have been 'near' complete for a while because we saw them in the Annual in 2007, and heck we even have samples of what the full CD3 is capable of.. Is it worth extra money? IF I have to pay for it fine, but I will NOT Pay another 60-70+ Australian dollars (because hey I can't choose to use the US exchange rate I have to use the POUND exchange rate) for something that was originally never meant to take this long to be produced.
Every one says that Profantasy is 'Fair' and treats their customers well yes they do, yes they have.. Linda and Ralph have always helped me with mapping issues, even if some things they can not explain such as why maps that worked at large export sizes in CC2 no longer work at the same size in CC3 etc.. But on other things we get told to wait till later in the week or wait until after gencon for more information.. at the start of this month that was basically the case, at the end of the month it is still the case.. All I am asking for is FIRM information and if I am forced to UPDATE a link to the UPDATE page, a FIRM price on the Upgrade price so that I can plan on having the money, because hey there own website say's I can order a upgrade if I'm not eligable for it for free, and that if I do it before it's released I can get it cheaper. Yet there IS NO Upgrade option in the shop at all there is the preorder, but why oh why would I pay the full price (or near full price) for something I already paid for after CC3 came out?
Am I asking too much? Maybe you might think so but I don't, I'm asking a company who I feel have always been great to us to give us the information so we can plan in advanced to have the money avalible. So that we can make an INFORMED choice.
Look through the forums, the news lists etc every time I've asked since after DD3 was finished etc was WHO can expect to get the update each time all we've gotten is 'those who purchased a year before it's released' ok fine but that should also mean that given that CD3 is coming out now in what looks to be september rather then august every one who brought last August shouldn't be eligable either yet the website states otherwise.
I'm honestly beyond caring if I upset people by speaking my mind, I'm open I'm honest and I'm blunt might be why I find it hard to get a job, interviewers don't like it when you speak your mind.. but heck that's me and I'm not about to change.
JimP: In all honesty. It is Profantasy who made a choice of sticking with this old cad engine, and when they worked on CC3 they decided to ignore Windows Vista, for several months there were beta versions, etc. available, and they had a chance to make sure they are compatible. Yes, Windows VIsta is incompatible with several old software, and you can blame Microsoft for that. You can blame them, even if they said some practices seen in numerous programs are dangerous, they explained it over and over. And they said they will enforce some standards of quality with later windows versions. And Vista delivered these promises.
But in case of CC3, most of the work was done after MS made these promises, a lot of work and most testing was done when Vista was available (either in beta or final versions), at this time Profantasy knew, their customers will get their PCs with Vista, and some will probably have to stick with 64 bit Vista, and yet they gladly ignored this and forgot to beta test in such environment.
While Microsoft made sure Vista recognizes certain old software and try to be compatible with them, they had no chance to check if CC3 is compatible with Vista. Why? Because CC3 was released after Vista, and they had no access to CC3 public betas. So pointing to Microsoft and blaming Vista for the mistakes made by Profantasy staff seems to be a bit lame to say the least. If Profantasy would wait with CC3 till it becomes stable enough even in Vista, has a manual, and would continue to work on expansions, etc. we wouldn't see the same problems. Who should be blamed for their choice here? Mr Bush? Julius Ceasar? Bill Gates? Who should be blamed since their plans and roadmap wasn't solid and they posted missleading information? Paris Hilton?
The roadmap posted at that time suggested pretty fast releases for most software, they made a post and we made a decision based on that. Sadly they made a post without knowing what they do and how much it will worth.
So far we have to wait for a decent manual, since someone will make it, and probably we will have to pay for the useful manual, till that, if we want tutorials and access to some info? Buy the annual. As a surprise, since they decided to release CC3, when neither the compatibility testing nor the manual was finished. They rushed and it is the customers who pay the price.
But come on, the problem doesn't end here. Remember the coupon codes we got this year? Some people who bought whole shebang deal (updates influenced their choice) had to buy the annual already seen: "what can I do with this coupon code?" Yes, we are the ones Profantasy forgot about. Since nothing to buy with that code made the code worthless.
If they would say: "Here, you can use the coupon code to preorder CD3 update now with just the coupon code, since there is a package for scenarios like yours" we could have used the coupon code, and we wouldn't have worry now. Who decided to wait with dates, update conditions till even the coupon chance is vanished? Was it the Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars? Or was it Profantasy staff?
Why prerelase access would be useful?
Since with CC3 we learned some of the releases aren't stable either, so we don't see adifference.
And since with these events made sure many users who bought stuff in this period of time doesn't have any reason to trust Profantasy, nor their earlier emails sent in private that much, it would also come with official word about update conditions.
And it would at least give us a chance to learn and see some features of the software early and would be a small bit of compensation.
While we get some technical support (Yes, I get tech support from Microsoft, CPanel, Bioware, EA Mythic, etc. as well, and get good support as well), in some cases they can't give solid answers about the limitations (see export size problem mentioned by Rob for example), and I have learned to expect technicall support AND fair bussiness practices. Behing happy if I get only one of them isn't an option.
Soon you will say: We should be tankfull, since they delivered CC3 and it wasn't full of viruses since it could be worse?
No, Mr. JimP, this time Profantasy made mistakes, and it should be them to pay the price.
Posted By: TheElfWhile Microsoft made sure Vista recognizes certain old software and try to be compatible with them, they had no chance to check if CC3 is compatible with Vista. Why? Because CC3 was released after Vista, and they had no acces
Official Vista release date: January 30, 2007 Official CC3 release date: June 28, 2006
CC3 was released more than half a year before Vista.
Please, noone has to worry about losing out concerning free or reduced-price upgrades, the opportunities will not be changed due to delays in City Designer 3. ProFantasy has always been fair and forthcoming in update policy and will continue to act that way.
We will be offering a special price upgrade to everyone who owns CD2/Pro (and doesn't get a free version anyway) for a fixed time window /after/ the release - which is why we're not giving the dates yet. They'll be there once the release is.
I guess I'm still standing in the rain about what the real issue is here...
CC3 was released with bugs and PF is to blame? Show me a piece of software that was entirely bug-free from day 1.
CC3's technical support isn't up to par with that of Microsoft, Bioware or EA Mythic? Last time I checked, those three are million-dollar-plus corporations who can afford large dedicated support departments. I don't know how big ProFantasy is, but somehow I get the feeling a box of donuts feeds the staff. In this situation, support isn't an easy job. I'm a little dismayed at how customers have come to believe they have an extensive list of rights simply because they are willing to pay for a product. The reality is, when you hand over money, you aren't entitled to anything more than the product you've purchased, and unless that product specifically includes 24 hour instant-response support to any questions you might have, you should feel privileged to receive anywhere near that kind of service. When PF takes "ages" to answer questions like the one Rob is asking, it isn't anything personal - they most likely aren't trying to screw you over. I'm sorry you feel upset over the issue, but honestly, you didn't pay for instant-response so as inconvenient as it may be (and I agree it is terribly inconvenient) PF isn't doing anything *wrong* by not answering your questions immediately. Hopefully, my opinion hasn't been stated too bluntly for you.
Finally, I didn't pay a great deal of attention in the early days of CC3, but from what I recall PF basically stated that they were *expecting* CD3 to be released in 6-18 months, and that (entirely unrelated) any upgrades released within a year would qualify for a free upgrade. I could be wrong, but that's how I understood it at the time. And if that's the case, it seems clear to me that some people may have mistakenly connected the two together into one erroneous belief: "CD3 will be released in 6-18 months and anyone who purchases the CD-Pro compatibility update will be eligible for a free upgrade when CD3 is released". Interpreted correctly, it was up to you to gamble on CD3 being released within a year of your purchase of the CD-Pro compatibility update, but here's the part that seems to fly over the heads of some people:
You paid for the CD-Pro update over a year ago, assuming you were simply purchasing CD3 and receiving the update for free. In fact, you were purchasing CD-Pro and its update for CC3. For over a year, you have had a more or less fully functioning piece of software (CD-Pro) which you have presumably been using. THAT is what you paid for. Any assumption that, regardless of having a working product for over a year, you are still entitled to a free upgrade to a new piece of software is kind of unfair. You paid for software, you used that software. After a certain period of use you are assumed to have received the value of what you've paid for, and a new version requires more money. The whole point of the one year upgrade is simple: "In less than a year of use, PF believes you haven't received the full value of the software you bought, so they are extending your payment to a new version of the product." This is a benefit that PF has chosen to give you out of the kindness of their collective hearts. I know that people have grown accustomed to assuming this is a customer RIGHT, but it's not. The world would be financially ruined if it was a universal right.
Suffice it to say, I'm not attacking any of you. It would certainly be nice to have our questions answered, and I understand that without answers you're in a bit of a tough situation, Rob. Unfortunately, that's life, and stressing over it will only make your life shorter, and nobody wants that.
Agree or disagree, that's MY opinion on the matter!
Edit: Just noticed Ralf's post: Hooray! Sounds like PF continues to be the benevolent company we've come to know and appreciate!
Well, I stand by what I said. I have used this sofware since 1999. I have encountered no other company with the level of tech support and user support Profantasy gives. Believe me or not. I don't care.
Ralph, thank you for that, However ..... could you at least update your own website to reflect what you are saying? here is what I mean..
using italics seems i can't remember the quote code...
The pre-order price for the upgrade will be lower than the post-release upgrade price. You get the lower price, but do not pre-order if you aren't prepared to wait
it contridicts things said by PF in the past it also has things in it that are not avalible. ie the upgrade mentioned above. I'm not going to get into elf's argument about vista honestly.. my points i've listed
A. who is eligable b. how much will this ugrade cost c. if you don't get the upgrade do you still get the features with out art.
as for the CD - CC3 compatability update.. it's always been listed simply as a compatability update until CD3 came out, the way PF had their original stuff worded was a release schedual and the only thing any one could use to plan their purchases off. I won't disagree that the Compatability updates work with CC3 they do but they do not make full use of CC3's features they also in some cases have a large amount of 'hacks' to get them to work with CC3 rather then how they where originally intended to work.. CD isn't the biggest example here COS is (multideck feature = a big one) CD's biggest is things like shadows and the fact that normal produced art doesn't look to crash if you attempt to use the CC3 features with it of the shadow differances etc. I'm not saying the vector art looks bad.. it's not if your going for a CC2 look but the moment you start to use bitmap objects it does cause major clash's.. the moment you add shadows it causes major clashes.. As I've said go through last 2 years of mailing list you'll see all I've asked about is CD's release date or how it's coming along because of the promised features.
I trust PF I've not attacked the fact that CD3 is late, or that I might have to pay for it in the last few posts I've attacked the contradicting information dally, I know that PF isn't a multibillion dollar company what I am attacking is that we where told we'd have information etc etc etc AFTER GENCON. Instead after gencon we got people saying they had it.. Ralph saying that it was buggy still and yet no information on the Upgrade etc etc.. And no Dally I don't take your answers as being mean :P
I mean half the 'problems' that were pointing out can be solved nice and simple: A news post that is posted on the front page of their website, and then linked from here and on the mailing group.
All they have to say is something like this
"At this time CD3 has suffered a few bugs that have delayed the final product launch found only when people got their hands on the beta at Gencon, they are working on it. Please bare with us and understand that there may be some contradicting information on our website at the moment in regards to upgrades, due to the delay we have not yet been able to get the pre-order for the upgrade online nor a price. We are also still working on who will be eligable so the dates mentioned may change, as soon as we have more information we will let you know sorry for the delay we know many have been highly anticipating this product"
Something like that isn't causing them a headache because it's GOT no firm date in it, it's saying that things are still in flux and that the information on their website might be a bit wrong at this time. It also lets those of us who are after information know that we don't have to hunt through the forums and mailing list for 20 diffrent posts and try to work out which set of comments is 'true' for the current date..
Communication is what I've been asking for firm and open communication will I throw a fit if Simon and Ralph say I have to get the upgrade? I've already said no I won't, but I would like to know before the product comes out, not after the fact. Hence why I have asked about the things I have asked about.
Comments
But as you know, people who bought the whole shebang after CC3 could speak about some updates that might take several monthsmore to get released.
If you had several products registered, but decided to go for the whole shebang, instead of buying the missing updates, and have a new registrartion for all, and say: Have 2 licences of perspectives and you bought the 2nd because you hoped most will be updated?
There are bad scenarios, and there are worse scenarios.
While it would be nice to see everything or almost everything updated... I doubt if that would happen.
Free CD3 upgrade, with possible free upgrades for the "doubles" you have (bought them in hope of that) is a fair compromise. Anything less than that would be unfair, and anything more than that is unlikely (even if it would be fair from most perspectives, Profantasy wants to earn some money).
But I am sure there are others who would draw the line elsewhere.
Some would draw at the 1 year line.
Some would say: people who ordered stuff when the planned schedule made them expect to get updates should get the expected updates, but nothing else.
Some would say: Everything bought after CC3...
etc. :)
We're also creating a reduced size install for those with low bandwidths, and an option to download the missing stuff (very high resolution bitmaps) separately.
As soon as we're set for release, I'll have news on prices, upgrades, etc.
I've been fixing things in the CD3 release all day. Simon noticed something that, while not terribly complicated, needed a while to fix. It's done now, but I need to redo the lower-bandwidth version of the symbol catalogs. That'll be done early tomorrow, then I can build a new release candidate.
Some of us use beta versions of various software on regular basis. Why? Since it is safe to do so in a VM, and learning about new software and new technologies is a good thing. And if you help to beta test software, and run it in VM and when it seems stable in different kinds of other environment you regularly use for testing, you can help to reduce the number of bugs with released software. It is good for both parties.
Why?
Since it would mean the software gets tested in different kinds of environments.
And tbh, I would prefer to have the extra time to learn CD3, see the crashes and problems in a test environments (install it to a few VMs) and have it stable and tested and known instead of a long wait and "vista bugs" in the stable as surprise.
Update: Got another release candidate out to Simon and the beta-testers this morning, but some more issues have already been detected. Meaning there'll be another cycle tomorrow.
If all your doing is testing bugs to do with the CC3/CD3 side of things and not art work, why must a 'full' install be redone each and every time? Common sense says it would be faster to just do the main section and get it out to test it rather then a full install each and every time.. It's how I do releases it's how most companies do releases.. even in beta.. if your testers have the majority of the data why resend it time and time again? If it's an Install problem then something is wrong there, because presuming your programming using Visual Studio or the like it makes the installer to your own specifications.
Also If we who brought before August 2007 are Not Intitaled to the Free upgrade, are we at least entitled to the actual CORE of CD3 with out the art work. That way we can at least use the new features that have been 2 years in the making and much talked about..
I'm not attacking the programmers bugs happen but I am attacking the fact that we keep being told wait until it's done Then we will tell you if your entitled to the update etc. Some of us just want to know firmly yes or no.. that's all.
It would also be nice if the explinations where posted by PF to the mailing list as well..
Right now we not only waiting for CD3, but we are waiting to know to see exact dates announced for free updates by Ralf, and how many times it was promised for tomorrow?
Saying "Hey, you are entitled for a free update anyway, and if you want to beta test it and know what you are doing, why not? Use this user ide here to log in and download current betas just like the current beta testers do" costs almost nothing but would boosts confidence.
Right now, I very rarely use any Profantasy products anymore, just installd the last few annuals and haven't even seen what they can do. Why? Because sadly they don't bring much "happiness" with them, since it makes me remember a few issues.
You want a solid version as release, not something like the current betas. But how long a current candidate should stay bug free to be considered stable? Will we have problems with different OS versions again (since the current batch of beta testers can't find them)? Will it be as long as fixing CC3 and so on for Vista problems? And if such bugs will be discovered, and the beta periods extended for them before release, and it isn't any faster than before, will we get CD3 before Christmass? Before the next one?
Profantasy provides far better customer support than any other commercial software company I have ever worked with. That includes as a private indivudual and as a person who installs/upgrades software for companies.
As far as I know, there was never a release date announced for CD3. Profantasy doesn't do that.
The biggest bug I know of, is Windows Vista. As someone who has done computer tech support for 20 years, Vista doesn't even come up to Windows for Workgroups standards.
If you need help with CC3 and its add-ons, just ask. Many of us here turn out maps using most of the software Profantasy sells.
DD3 - 6months
CD3 - 6 - 18 months.
Or something along those lines CD3 was I can clearly remember within the next year - year and a half.
Ralph and the others have acknowledged that CD3 has taken them Far Longer then they expected, they also admitted time had to be taken from it's development to get the bugs fixed caused by vista.. As I said I'm not attacking that. All I want is a Firm Yes or No that I am going to have to pay again.. As I am on a PENSION, that means that I have to plan for what I buy and have to have the money to buy it.
I paid for CC3, DD, CD, COS after CC3 came out, originally the whole big point of buying it was at the most you would have to pay for if updates came out after a set date was the ART Update yet so far we have heard zip on if those of us stuck running the Compatability Update are going to be granted access to the New features for CD3. Heck if I wanted to make maps forever in the old CD style I'd have just brought CC2 and CD and left it at that.
IF you care to look at the history of both the mailing list and the forums I have been one of the biggest people asking PF for updates and information etc related to City Designer 3, why? Because 90% of my maps are not dungeons are not overland maps... they are City maps and I've been avidly awaiting CD 3 since it was announced.
As mentioned above in this post and the last the ORIGINAL release Schedual announced on the website (it has been changed now) stated X months for each product.. DD3 was 6months etc.. we Know that DD3 suffered some set backs due to issues outside of Profantasy's control.. I know the reasons I won't go into them. We also know that CD3 has suffered set backs and has taken them far far longer then they ever expected it to.. Is that their fault? NO I've never said that it was their fault. All I've asked for is information on who will be getting the free update and if those who do NOT get the free update and instead have only the compatability update are going to get the Features WITH OUT the artwork to go with those features. DD3 didn't ADD any new major features it added new artwork, CD while great can't easily be used with CC3, oh yes it supports sheets etc but you can't easily make new artwork that fits with the rest of the features of CC3 why? Because as Ralph and Simon have said they had to code those features (Roof slant shadows etc etc etc).
Now we know that some of those features have been 'near' complete for a while because we saw them in the Annual in 2007, and heck we even have samples of what the full CD3 is capable of.. Is it worth extra money? IF I have to pay for it fine, but I will NOT Pay another 60-70+ Australian dollars (because hey I can't choose to use the US exchange rate I have to use the POUND exchange rate) for something that was originally never meant to take this long to be produced.
Every one says that Profantasy is 'Fair' and treats their customers well yes they do, yes they have.. Linda and Ralph have always helped me with mapping issues, even if some things they can not explain such as why maps that worked at large export sizes in CC2 no longer work at the same size in CC3 etc.. But on other things we get told to wait till later in the week or wait until after gencon for more information.. at the start of this month that was basically the case, at the end of the month it is still the case.. All I am asking for is FIRM information and if I am forced to UPDATE a link to the UPDATE page, a FIRM price on the Upgrade price so that I can plan on having the money, because hey there own website say's I can order a upgrade if I'm not eligable for it for free, and that if I do it before it's released I can get it cheaper. Yet there IS NO Upgrade option in the shop at all there is the preorder, but why oh why would I pay the full price (or near full price) for something I already paid for after CC3 came out?
Am I asking too much? Maybe you might think so but I don't, I'm asking a company who I feel have always been great to us to give us the information so we can plan in advanced to have the money avalible. So that we can make an INFORMED choice.
Look through the forums, the news lists etc every time I've asked since after DD3 was finished etc was WHO can expect to get the update each time all we've gotten is 'those who purchased a year before it's released' ok fine but that should also mean that given that CD3 is coming out now in what looks to be september rather then august every one who brought last August shouldn't be eligable either yet the website states otherwise.
I'm honestly beyond caring if I upset people by speaking my mind, I'm open I'm honest and I'm blunt might be why I find it hard to get a job, interviewers don't like it when you speak your mind.. but heck that's me and I'm not about to change.
-Rob.
But in case of CC3, most of the work was done after MS made these promises, a lot of work and most testing was done when Vista was available (either in beta or final versions), at this time Profantasy knew, their customers will get their PCs with Vista, and some will probably have to stick with 64 bit Vista, and yet they gladly ignored this and forgot to beta test in such environment.
While Microsoft made sure Vista recognizes certain old software and try to be compatible with them, they had no chance to check if CC3 is compatible with Vista. Why? Because CC3 was released after Vista, and they had no access to CC3 public betas. So pointing to Microsoft and blaming Vista for the mistakes made by Profantasy staff seems to be a bit lame to say the least. If Profantasy would wait with CC3 till it becomes stable enough even in Vista, has a manual, and would continue to work on expansions, etc. we wouldn't see the same problems. Who should be blamed for their choice here? Mr Bush? Julius Ceasar? Bill Gates? Who should be blamed since their plans and roadmap wasn't solid and they posted missleading information? Paris Hilton?
The roadmap posted at that time suggested pretty fast releases for most software, they made a post and we made a decision based on that. Sadly they made a post without knowing what they do and how much it will worth.
So far we have to wait for a decent manual, since someone will make it, and probably we will have to pay for the useful manual, till that, if we want tutorials and access to some info? Buy the annual. As a surprise, since they decided to release CC3, when neither the compatibility testing nor the manual was finished. They rushed and it is the customers who pay the price.
But come on, the problem doesn't end here. Remember the coupon codes we got this year? Some people who bought whole shebang deal (updates influenced their choice) had to buy the annual already seen: "what can I do with this coupon code?" Yes, we are the ones Profantasy forgot about. Since nothing to buy with that code made the code worthless.
If they would say: "Here, you can use the coupon code to preorder CD3 update now with just the coupon code, since there is a package for scenarios like yours" we could have used the coupon code, and we wouldn't have worry now. Who decided to wait with dates, update conditions till even the coupon chance is vanished? Was it the Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars? Or was it Profantasy staff?
Why prerelase access would be useful?
Since with CC3 we learned some of the releases aren't stable either, so we don't see adifference.
And since with these events made sure many users who bought stuff in this period of time doesn't have any reason to trust Profantasy, nor their earlier emails sent in private that much, it would also come with official word about update conditions.
And it would at least give us a chance to learn and see some features of the software early and would be a small bit of compensation.
While we get some technical support (Yes, I get tech support from Microsoft, CPanel, Bioware, EA Mythic, etc. as well, and get good support as well), in some cases they can't give solid answers about the limitations (see export size problem mentioned by Rob for example), and I have learned to expect technicall support AND fair bussiness practices. Behing happy if I get only one of them isn't an option.
Soon you will say: We should be tankfull, since they delivered CC3 and it wasn't full of viruses since it could be worse?
No, Mr. JimP, this time Profantasy made mistakes, and it should be them to pay the price.
Official CC3 release date: June 28, 2006
CC3 was released more than half a year before Vista.
Please, noone has to worry about losing out concerning free or reduced-price upgrades, the opportunities will not be changed due to delays in City Designer 3. ProFantasy has always been fair and forthcoming in update policy and will continue to act that way.
We will be offering a special price upgrade to everyone who owns CD2/Pro (and doesn't get a free version anyway) for a fixed time window /after/ the release - which is why we're not giving the dates yet. They'll be there once the release is.
CC3 was released with bugs and PF is to blame? Show me a piece of software that was entirely bug-free from day 1.
CC3's technical support isn't up to par with that of Microsoft, Bioware or EA Mythic? Last time I checked, those three are million-dollar-plus corporations who can afford large dedicated support departments. I don't know how big ProFantasy is, but somehow I get the feeling a box of donuts feeds the staff. In this situation, support isn't an easy job. I'm a little dismayed at how customers have come to believe they have an extensive list of rights simply because they are willing to pay for a product. The reality is, when you hand over money, you aren't entitled to anything more than the product you've purchased, and unless that product specifically includes 24 hour instant-response support to any questions you might have, you should feel privileged to receive anywhere near that kind of service. When PF takes "ages" to answer questions like the one Rob is asking, it isn't anything personal - they most likely aren't trying to screw you over. I'm sorry you feel upset over the issue, but honestly, you didn't pay for instant-response so as inconvenient as it may be (and I agree it is terribly inconvenient) PF isn't doing anything *wrong* by not answering your questions immediately. Hopefully, my opinion hasn't been stated too bluntly for you.
Finally, I didn't pay a great deal of attention in the early days of CC3, but from what I recall PF basically stated that they were *expecting* CD3 to be released in 6-18 months, and that (entirely unrelated) any upgrades released within a year would qualify for a free upgrade. I could be wrong, but that's how I understood it at the time. And if that's the case, it seems clear to me that some people may have mistakenly connected the two together into one erroneous belief: "CD3 will be released in 6-18 months and anyone who purchases the CD-Pro compatibility update will be eligible for a free upgrade when CD3 is released". Interpreted correctly, it was up to you to gamble on CD3 being released within a year of your purchase of the CD-Pro compatibility update, but here's the part that seems to fly over the heads of some people:
You paid for the CD-Pro update over a year ago, assuming you were simply purchasing CD3 and receiving the update for free. In fact, you were purchasing CD-Pro and its update for CC3. For over a year, you have had a more or less fully functioning piece of software (CD-Pro) which you have presumably been using. THAT is what you paid for. Any assumption that, regardless of having a working product for over a year, you are still entitled to a free upgrade to a new piece of software is kind of unfair. You paid for software, you used that software. After a certain period of use you are assumed to have received the value of what you've paid for, and a new version requires more money. The whole point of the one year upgrade is simple: "In less than a year of use, PF believes you haven't received the full value of the software you bought, so they are extending your payment to a new version of the product." This is a benefit that PF has chosen to give you out of the kindness of their collective hearts. I know that people have grown accustomed to assuming this is a customer RIGHT, but it's not. The world would be financially ruined if it was a universal right.
Suffice it to say, I'm not attacking any of you. It would certainly be nice to have our questions answered, and I understand that without answers you're in a bit of a tough situation, Rob. Unfortunately, that's life, and stressing over it will only make your life shorter, and nobody wants that.
Agree or disagree, that's MY opinion on the matter!
Edit: Just noticed Ralf's post: Hooray! Sounds like PF continues to be the benevolent company we've come to know and appreciate!
using italics seems i can't remember the quote code...
The pre-order price for the upgrade will be lower than the post-release upgrade price. You get the lower price, but do not pre-order if you aren't prepared to wait
the reason some of us are confused over elligability etc etc etc is right here same place that quote came from: http://www.profantasy.com/products/cd3_upgrade.asp
it contridicts things said by PF in the past it also has things in it that are not avalible. ie the upgrade mentioned above. I'm not going to get into elf's argument about vista honestly.. my points i've listed
A. who is eligable
b. how much will this ugrade cost
c. if you don't get the upgrade do you still get the features with out art.
as for the CD - CC3 compatability update.. it's always been listed simply as a compatability update until CD3 came out, the way PF had their original stuff worded was a release schedual and the only thing any one could use to plan their purchases off. I won't disagree that the Compatability updates work with CC3 they do but they do not make full use of CC3's features they also in some cases have a large amount of 'hacks' to get them to work with CC3 rather then how they where originally intended to work.. CD isn't the biggest example here COS is (multideck feature = a big one) CD's biggest is things like shadows and the fact that normal produced art doesn't look to crash if you attempt to use the CC3 features with it of the shadow differances etc. I'm not saying the vector art looks bad.. it's not if your going for a CC2 look but the moment you start to use bitmap objects it does cause major clash's.. the moment you add shadows it causes major clashes.. As I've said go through last 2 years of mailing list you'll see all I've asked about is CD's release date or how it's coming along because of the promised features.
I trust PF I've not attacked the fact that CD3 is late, or that I might have to pay for it in the last few posts I've attacked the contradicting information dally, I know that PF isn't a multibillion dollar company what I am attacking is that we where told we'd have information etc etc etc AFTER GENCON. Instead after gencon we got people saying they had it.. Ralph saying that it was buggy still and yet no information on the Upgrade etc etc.. And no Dally I don't take your answers as being mean :P
I mean half the 'problems' that were pointing out can be solved nice and simple: A news post that is posted on the front page of their website, and then linked from here and on the mailing group.
All they have to say is something like this
"At this time CD3 has suffered a few bugs that have delayed the final product launch found only when people got their hands on the beta at Gencon, they are working on it. Please bare with us and understand that there may be some contradicting information on our website at the moment in regards to upgrades, due to the delay we have not yet been able to get the pre-order for the upgrade online nor a price. We are also still working on who will be eligable so the dates mentioned may change, as soon as we have more information we will let you know sorry for the delay we know many have been highly anticipating this product"
Something like that isn't causing them a headache because it's GOT no firm date in it, it's saying that things are still in flux and that the information on their website might be a bit wrong at this time. It also lets those of us who are after information know that we don't have to hunt through the forums and mailing list for 20 diffrent posts and try to work out which set of comments is 'true' for the current date..
Communication is what I've been asking for firm and open communication will I throw a fit if Simon and Ralph say I have to get the upgrade? I've already said no I won't, but I would like to know before the product comes out, not after the fact. Hence why I have asked about the things I have asked about.