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    • CommentAuthorMattM
    • CommentTimeNov 17th 2010 edited
     
    I am trying to make an effect to use for printing a GM's city map. This plan was to have the entire city in greyscale and only labels in color. I did this by applying an RGB Matrix Process - Preset Grey to every sheet except TEXT.

    However, I am seeing this effect on the VEGETATION TREES sheet:



    As you can see, the trees are grey, but the bushes are still green. Both symbols are from the CD3B_Default set. I have confirmed that both the bushes and trees are on the VEGETATION TREES sheet by hiding all sheets but that one.

    Note that if I apply the preset grey to the entire drawing, the bushes are properly grey, but of course, so are the text labels, which I want to be in color.

    I am seeing a similar effect with some symbols on other sheets that came from the SMAC collection - They remain full color if I apply the grey preset effect to their sheet, but are grey if applied to the entire drawing.

    Is this a bug?
    • CommentAuthorAnoril
    • CommentTimeNov 18th 2010
     
    Hi,

    It may be related to the bitdeph of the image involved... Maybe the Matrix Process cannot deal with more than 8bit color?

    Regards,
    • CommentAuthorMattM
    • CommentTimeNov 18th 2010
     
    That's a reasonable theory, except... 1) Both symbols are very similar (just different sizes) and from the same symbol set. So they should be the same bit depth, and 2) It doesn't explain why the greyscale works just fine when applied to the entire drawing.
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeNov 18th 2010
     
    When opening the bushes in Photoshop, it gives a warning that the file type does not support an embedded color profile. The trees do not do this. I'm not sure what this means, or why it works on the whole drawing but not on individual sheets. However, since greyscale does affect the RGB colors, I can only assume that this is where the issue lies.

    Since the bushes are exactly like the trees, only smaller, you could use the tree symbols and just resize them.
    • CommentAuthorMattM
    • CommentTimeNov 18th 2010 edited
     
    Posted By: ShessarSince the bushes are exactly like the trees, only smaller, you could use the tree symbols and just resize them.


    Yeah, too bad there's about a thousand of them! It would have been nice to discover this before the map was complete.

    I tried opening the PNG files in Photoshop like you did, but I got no warnings. I also tried, just for grins, to change the color mode in Photoshop from 8 bit to 16 bit and back again, then re-save them from Photoshop back to the CD3/Bitmap B directory. The file sizes were slightly larger, so I was hoping some additional color data or something got saved with them. No change, even if I add new bushes.

    Of course, I also have the same dilemma with some bitmaps from your libraries ( http://smac.cwahi.net/Symbols.htm ).

    So, I think you are on the right track... It has something to do with format of the individual symbol files. Maybe applying to the entire drawing works because it treats the whole map like a single graphic file, not a collection of symbols?

    Would be nice to hear from ProFantasy on this. Will email tech support if no one chimes in.

    - Matt
    •  
      CommentAuthorRalf
    • CommentTimeNov 19th 2010
     
    I'm not seeing this problem here. My bush bitmaps don't give a warning in Photoshop and I can apply an RGB Matrix filter just fine to make them greyscale. THe ones in the current CD3 build seem to be fine too.

    Matt, send me an email (ralf@profantasy.com), and I'll send you my bush pngs over, so you can try them.
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeNov 19th 2010
     
    What is really odd is that when I use the symbols, I have the same problem that Matt has. However, if I just open the png's folder directly through the symbol viewer, then everything works fine.

    Matt, which SMAC symbols are you having problems with? You don't have to list all of them if there are a lot, just one or two so that I can play around with this. There has to be something in the file that messes with the symbol creation process and I'm as curious as I can be.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMonsen
    • CommentTimeNov 19th 2010 edited
     
    I also have the same problem. But contrary to what Shessar says, it does not help loading the png's directly instead of through the symbol catalog (Neither by using "insert file", or by opening up the folder of .png's in the symbol catalog window).

    Also interesting, if I insert a tree from that catalog through the use of Insert File, then go pick the .png, the tree won't turn greyscale either (while all trees placed through the symbol catalog does.
    • CommentAuthorMattM
    • CommentTimeNov 19th 2010 edited
     
    Shessar -

    Most everything from the CastleParts, Frills_Misc and Markets catalogs, as you can see on the keep and market here (also one from Buildings_Temples):



    Also, one pool from the Dungeon Pools catalog shows the problem while another does not:

    • CommentAuthorMattM
    • CommentTimeNov 19th 2010 edited
     
    I have been emailing back and forth with Ralf to get this sorted. I just sent him the entire map.

    Here are a few more clues I turned up...

    Tried turning on another effect in the same vegetation sheet to see if that did anything, I used Blur:



    At first glance it looks like that doesn't work either, but by hiding all the other sheets, you can see that it is trying to do a little blur around the edges. Almost as if there is a blurred bush being overdrawn with a normal bush:



    Finally, I tried a red glow:



    You can see that the glow is being applied to the trees properly, but something is not quite right on the bushes.

    - Matt
    • CommentAuthorjslayton
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2010
     
    It's acting like the symbols are getting placed before the sheet rendering entitiy, if that makes any sense.
    • CommentAuthorMattM
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2010
     
    Posted By: jslaytonIt's acting like the symbols are getting placed before the sheet rendering entitiy, if that makes any sense.


    Yes. Or rather, like the symbol is getting placed, then the sheet effects take place, then for the bad symbols, they get placed again.

    That would explain the blur and glow examples above.

    Hopefully Ralf is about to have a "slap palm to forehead" moment and tell us it is a simple fix! :)

    - Matt
    •  
      CommentAuthorRalf
    • CommentTimeNov 22nd 2010
     
    Well, it's not exactly "slap palm to the forehead", but we found the reason. The filters work only if the symbols have the "roof-shading" flag set (SHADEPICT).

    You can work around it, by editing the symbol definition (from the Symbol Manager) and using SHADEPICT on the image of the bush.

    This whole issue has a bunch of things connected to it and we'll be looking further into a proper fix.
    • CommentAuthorMattM
    • CommentTimeNov 22nd 2010
     
    The workaround seems to work great. Thanks!

    I assume once this flag is set on a symbol, it is good from that point forward on any new maps as well?

    - Matt
    •  
      CommentAuthorRalf
    • CommentTimeNov 22nd 2010
     
    Yes, but of course you'll have to do the changes in the original symbol catalog.
    • CommentAuthorShessar
    • CommentTimeNov 22nd 2010
     
    It's obvious that it is more than this, since with the SMAC symbols, some work and some don't, and I've never set this flag on any of them.

    Ralf, once you have this all figured, let me know if there is anything I'll need to do to make the SMAC symbols work (short of editing every symbol). I would love for the SMAC to be fully functional within CC, but my time is somewhat limited. :-)